Astro in savage

[VanEinstein]

Spear is useful on Mch, as it helps our reload and other cooldowns. I also use spear on tanks because they like to do big pulls and pop cooldowns.

I'll give you that. It's true, Machinists are frequently using CD's throughout. At one time I had that same mentality about tanks, but for some reason most of the tanks I've been in expert roulette's with rarely use their CD's, even when making a huge pull. Each time I think to myself, "here we go again, another tank that thinks CD's are only for bosses". Eventually I just stopped giving them spear when I saw that it was always going to waste, even after pointing it out to them.

[Arragomis]

Vlady is a bit of a sunshine and rainbows kind of player, and that can be irritating, But he has good points somewhat. The job isnt broken, it has been cleared. also just becaus he has not beat savage does not make him a bad healer. He might be, but dont assume because he hasnt cleared savage hes bad.. it could be a static issue. Statics are hard to come by, and even harder for astros because of the current negativity towards them. I personally have made it to enrage a few times as astro healing, and my white mage said the healing wasnt stressful. Synergy made things go better for preys and the added aoe heals werea nice touch. However enrage is on dps, not healers. People tend to blame the astro for everything, and that is what we are trying to stop. The class isnt perfect, could use some tweaks. but as is.. in the right hands can do all current content.

[Arragomis]

khyan because your not looking at everything. Just because the astro doesnt spam helios doesnt mean they arent healing. They are doing quick heals, keeping the tank alive they are required to, while the scholar handles succor, they tick Aspected Helios. THere really isnt much aoe in that fight other than gunnery, and over healing is bad. They time their heals to be most effective at the correct moments, and utilize card buffs as needed. They play an astro like an astro, not a whm.

[Flavionel]

That's why I compared AST\SCH with WHM\SCH. As long as party is alive, and healer's dps is the same with AST(or even more with cards, though I can't say for how much) - isn't it fine? Ofc, if dps from cards is negligible, almost no point to struggle with astro at all.
And I thought there was ppl who clearly think of AST as incapable for Savages("No AST" thing and that's all).

But of course, as a former WHM myself I agree, that it could be done with WHM with MUCH ease, not only cause WHM have better healing toolkit, but as AST you have to press much more buttons, plan your card setups on the fly. And parties need a reliable healer...
Guess if SE 'll unlock the opportunity to change healing stances in battle, things come even more hectic(doable though). At least while you have to stance-dance with cleric stance constantly just to pass current dps checks.

[tjw]

That's why I compared AST\SCH with WHM\SCH. As long as party is alive, and healer's dps is the same with AST(or even more with cards, though I can't say for how much) - isn't it fine? Ofc, if dps from cards is negligible, almost no point to struggle with astro at all.

I agree that if you CAN clear, it is fine. However, as your last sentence suggests, AST requires far more effort and compromise by the co-healer and even the party in order to utilise it in its current sub-optimal level. One can argue that the 'effort' of using AST is part of its appeal, but it shouldn't be. It should be able to fulfill its current role as a healer without hampering or placing larger difficulty on the party and the user.

And I thought there was ppl who clearly think of AST as incapable for Savages("No AST" thing and that's all).

You have mainly three crowds in terms of AST changes. One views AST as complete garbage and unwilling to give it a chance, and people see it as the new "Derp of teh month" and jump on the bandwagon. Another crowd views AST as completely fine and insists that it is perfectly up to standard and able to hold its place against its sibling healers. The last crowd acknowledges the issues of AST but know it is currently capable of healing, and instead want to see AST brought to its potential, and discussing ways in which it can improve.

But of course, as a former WHM myself I agree, that it could be done with WHM with MUCH ease, not only cause WHM have better healing toolkit, but as AST you have to press much more buttons, plan your card setups on the fly. And parties need a reliable healer...

And that's the crux of the situation. AST just has no viable place in the current endgame's meta compared to WHM and SCH. Its current design attempts to mimic either a WHM or a SCH with the extra niche of buffs...which are, however, largely unreliable and inconsequential, leaving the only comparison being in terms of its healing capabilities and toolkit. And currently, WHM and SCH far outshine AST in their healing kits and potential.

Currently, WHM, SCH and AST have their own definitive healing niches. WHM specialises in burst and raw healing, SCH specialises in mitigation and utility, and AST specialises in versatility and support. However, in any given party, only 2 spots are allowed for the healers. That means that in each party, the choices made need to be able to properly make up for what is lost. A WHM/SCH would need to make up for less buffs and less versatility on each of the healers. SCH/AST would need to make up for the loss of pure healing. WHM/AST would need to make up for the lack of mitigation and utility. However, AST currently only has versatility outside of combat, so it's strengths become based on its support skills. It is currently evident however that its support skills just do not make up for the loss of either healer's tools; in fact, SCH is able to reliably pump out as much, if not better, support than an AST is able to. This places AST as the inferior healer.

Does this make it incapable? No. It just makes it sub-optimal and less likely to be utilised for progression and even farm.

I personally feel that the Sects have close to a minimal impact, with only three abilities really receiving changes and the lack of an option to switch in-combat. I would rather see the Sects brought more into AST's gameplay style such as affecting the cards, and additional abilities that reflect off whichever Sect is active, or even abilities that change the sect. I feel this will bring a better 'support' functionality if the Sects have different effects on cards and more abilities. Of course, there are other issues prevalent, but improving the Sects (especially Nocturnal dear god that Sect is terrible atm) will help greatly.

summoner threads were that way and even then it took over a year among half for the fixes to come in.

WARs had their own hellfest in 2.0. They were quickly remedied in the next major patch of 2.1.
DRGs were being excluded very heavily in 2.4 from FCoB. This was quickly remedied in a minor patch to stop the exclusion.

The reason to why SMN took so long is that any inherent changes to traits or ACN abilities would also significantly affect SCH, which was in a very good position. With the freedom of 5 new abilites in Heavensward, the devs were more than able to improve on SMN's problems compared to if they had to tweak its 2.0 abilities. SMN was also not as affected by its flaws compared to what WAR and DRG, and now AST, had to go through.

Plus the real question is how the Japanese counterparts ate faring.

Considering there is a 190+ page thread on Astrologian on the JP Healer forums, they are more than likely not completely satisfied with the Job either if they are discussing it to that extent..

I (and no doubt many others) are also eagerly awaiting your proof of increasing a player's DPS by over hundreds using AST. Pray do not ignore us.

[Parawill]

Considering there is a 190+ page thread on Astrologian on the JP Healer forums, they are more than likely not completely satisfied with the Job either if they are discussing it to that extent..

I (and no doubt many others) are also eagerly awaiting your proof of increasing a player's DPS by over hundreds using AST. Pray do not ignore us.

Displeased. Thread parallels to ours, but has more discussion going on. Albeit they have their fair share of bickering on there as well, there are still more cons than pros. There are individuals who claim the class is fine as well, but like I said, cons > pros at the moment.

As for the last few pages, they're displeased with the lack of communication between the dev team/moderators with the community base (like all MMOs *pout*). There's some fun analogies like how devs are like teachers being happy one day in class, then ignore the students (players) for the rest of the year...

[Khyan]

khyan because your not looking at everything. Just because the astro doesnt spam helios doesnt mean they arent healing. They are doing quick heals, keeping the tank alive they are required to, while the scholar handles succor, they tick Aspected Helios. THere really isnt much aoe in that fight other than gunnery, and over healing is bad. They time their heals to be most effective at the correct moments, and utilize card buffs as needed. They play an astro like an astro, not a whm.

Yes I know, but it look so sad to see all these efforts for not that much than other healers.

[Rewind]

I know devs are reading this thread and I thought I'd post my ideas for changes to AST as someone who plays both SCH/WHM as well. I was thinking about making my own thread but there's enough out there already.

Cards

Cards typically drawn from draw (Bole, Balance, Spear, Arrow, Ewer and Spire) are "Action Cards" that AST can select to use.
Base duration is 15 seconds.

When you use a "Action Card" e.g Balance it is placed on a 1 minute cooldown
When you use a "Action Card" e.g Balance, the remaining cards are placed on a 30 second cooldown.

Draw, Spread, Royal Road, and Shuffle Function:
Draw instead, allows plays to draw for buffs (20 second cooldown)
This includes;

• Potency - Increases potency by 50%
• Duration - Increases duration by 15 seconds
• Extend - Spread action card to players within 15 yrds
• Reduce - Reduce the CD of played action card by 10 seconds
• Aura - Effect emits from player (10 yrd radius)

Royal Road instead, allows plays to gamble for improved buffs. (no cooldown)
This includes;

• Potency - Increases potency by an additional 100% (total 150% potency)
• Duration - Increases duration by an additional 30 seconds (total 45 seconds)
• Extend - No yrd restriction (covers entirity of room)
• Reduce - Reduce the CD of played action card by an additional 20 seconds (total 30 seconds)
• Aura - Effect emits from player (25 yrd radius)
• Fumble - You lose the card

Spread and Shuffle can remain relatively the same - instead you shuffle and spread buff cards, and you can't shuffle and retrieve the same card.

Utility and DPS Spells (work in progress)
If its green it's new.

- Luminferous Aether (No MP cost; Duration 15secs): Reduces Emnity Generation, Refresh potency by 80

- Lightspeed (No MP cost)

• Diurnal - Duration, 10 seconds - Reduces MP cost by 25%, spell cast time and GCD reduce by 2.3 seconds.
• Noctural - Duration, 25 seconds - Reduces MP cost by 75%, increases healing potency by additional 10%

- Essential Dignity (No MP cost - CD:40s) - Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 400 Potency increases the lower the target's HP. (Scales linearly up to 1000 potency).

• Diurnal - 15% chance aspected benefic will cost no MP (duration: 12 seconds)
• Noctural -25% chance aspected helios will cost no MP (duration: 12 seconds)

- Synastry (No MP cost - CD:120s) -Generate an aetheric bond with target party member. Each time you cast a healing spell on a party member not under the effect of Synastry, the party member with which you have the synastry bond will also recover HP equaling 50% of the original spell.

Duration: 20s

• Diurnal - Regen with a cure potency of 40 on both targets
• Noctural -Erects a magic barrier on both target - 10% chance when barriers are struck, the striker will do 10% less damage.

- Combust (535mp - Instant) - Deals unaspected damage over time. Potency: 40 Duration: 18s

- Combust II (618mp - Cast 2.5) -Deals unaspected damage over time. Potency: 45 Duration: 30s

- Stella (No MP - Cast 2.5 - CD; 30seconds) - Spread a targets combust and combust II to nearby enemies. Restore 5% MP.

- Collective Unconscious (No MP cost - CD: 90s - 15y) - Creates a wheel of fortune around the caster. Effect granted to party members upon entry differs depending on active Sect. Can only be executed when a Sect is active.

Refresh with a potency of 60

Effect ends upon using another action or moving.

• Diurnal - Regen with a Cure Potency of 200 (duration: 12 seconds)
• Noctural -Damage taken is reduced by 10% (duration: 12 seconds)

- Celestial Oppossition (No MP cost - CD:120s) - Stuns all nearby enemies. Duration: 4s (PvP 2s) Also extends duration of beneficial effects cast on self and party members by 5 seconds.

• Diurnal - Restores own and HP of nearby party members (Potency:350)
• Noctural - Damage taken of nearby party members is reduced by 10% for 10 seconds

Healing stances - Nocturnal & Diurnal

Still thinking a bit more about this - Need to do some potency crunching. Will edit later after work .

[Brightshadow]

The cards are overpowered in the idea presented above because you remove the "random" nature from the cards and can basically keep the best buff "balance" up 50% of the time; in addition it also makes the "bad" cards useless (spear,ewer,spire) because why would you use these if you can keep "balance & arrow" up full-time. While the RNG isn't optimal its one of the main features of the job, and by doing what you are suggesting with the cards it makes the job broken. All Astrologian needs is a bit more control over the cards (For example shuffle not redrawing the same card) and when a card isn't used (Royal Road) cut the recast of the draw in half. As for healing a new emergency heal and adjustments to Collective Unconscious & Celestial Opposition should be enough.

Another thing I think needs changes is the situational cards (Ewer & Spire) to function for any party composition by merging both TP & MP recovery into ewer, and making spire a "Mantra (HP recovery increase)" effect. And Definitely Spear needs to work on abilities already on cooldown.

[Rewind]

The cards are overpowered in this idea because you remove the RNG nature of the cards and can basically keep "balance" up 50% of the time, and it also makes the "bad" cards useless (spear,ewer,spire) While the RNG isn't optimal its one of the main features of the job, and by doing what you are suggesting with the cards it makes the job broken. All Astrologian needs is a bit more control over the cards (For example shuffle not redrawing the same card) and when a card isn't used (Royal Road) cut the recast of draw in half. As for healing a new emergency heal and adjustments to CU & CO should be enough.

My idea is that AST can supplement a BRD/MCH in raid. The benefit of the cards must also be as consistent as Eos/Selene buffs. I haven't discussed healing potency yet but I actually think no changes are needed to healing potency. Just some of the utility spells and some aspects of nocturnal stance because it just seems a bit...meh.

Maybe a debuff can be placed on a player so you can't roll the same card on the same player within a specific period of time? (e.g can't spam ewer on self, or balance on DRG) etc.

In most of the fights there are portions of downtime where other cards would be useful (bole, spire, ewer) that just don't get play now regardless because we didn't draw the right card at the right time and don't have the ability to spread more than once.

AST needs control of the cards to be a viable replacement. The potency of cards can easily be reduced (e.g Balance) to rebalance the now lack of RNG.