Astro in savage

[justinjarjar]

[QUOTE=Leiloni;317744

I'm not saying you can just go and change people's expectations, but they balance the game with certain ideas in mind so if you're playing in a different manner than intended, you're going to have to expect different results. [/QUOTE] (copy paste issue not sure why it did that)

they balance around the 1% thou. Regardless of who is doing the raids. And jsut beacuse they do not design the raid around healer dps does not mean people should not or that yoshi p does not want people to dps as healer. If they made raids for everyone (like normal mode was made for) then most people would have done Final coil by now which is not true. They are adding more casual friendly content, but still balance and make content for high end players.3]If you've read the quote where they say that then you've already read the rest of it where they basically say they don't care. They don't design raids to only be done by the 1% that go in undergeared and need healer dps. They design it for a higher gear level where healer dps doesn't matter, so that a larger portion of the playerbase can actually go in and complete the content without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for.

[Parawill]

Hi, Grekumah. I just wanted to make sure you saw this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ring-A1-Savage.

Wow. They put that in better words than I could ever have. I 100% agree.

[DarkmoonVael]

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback!

We'd like to share the dev. team's thoughts and approach in regards to the current balance of astrologians.

• Astrologian's healing potency and cards effects

  Astrologian's healing potency and card effects were set with a party's total offensive and defensive capabilities in mind, as they can increase various effects of other party members using their cards.
  
  The development team is observing player progression in raids and dungeons to ensure the game balance is set up appropriately for each piece of content. If they feel it needs further adjustments, they'll consider making adjustments based on player data and feedback.
  

• Future feedback

  The development team is constantly observing in-game data, but they're also using the feedback received on the forums when making future adjustments. Comments regarding how astrologians feel when healing throughout the various areas of content is very useful, so please continue to send us specific requests on each action's effect when battling through the different instances.

Hi Grekumah, thanks for the responses.

In regards to healing potency, its not the major issue on AST. Its in the inability to bring the same style of "emergency" healing to raid group that SCH and WHM can right now. The responsiveness of AST purely as a healer in cutting edge content just is not there, and sadly this is one class that really has to be first and foremost analysed as a healer by raid groups, with the support functionality taking a very far back seat. The way progression raids are healed relies on the healer duo to be able to respond to situations rapidly so they dont spiral out of control, these tend to be situations that are not forseen, and have to be responded to there and then (like a dps standing in something they shouldnt have, and add aggroing on a healer for too long, tank busters criticaling etc). For these situation SCH has Lustrate, Indomnibility and arguably Emergency Tactics and Dissipate whilst WHM has Benediction, Tetragrammaton and Assize. What AST has is Essential Dignity, one thing. Its simply not enough to be able to respond in the same way a WHM or SCH does in progression raids. Add to this the massive disparity between Nocturnal Sect and Diurnal Sect and we have issues.

The way Collective Unconcious operates in Nocturnal Sect actually makes it a dead ability except for boss transition phases. The way SCH has to use Sacred Soil in progression based raid is to further mitigate boss transitions, further mitigate targeted abilities at other party members and further mitigate aoe damage. Collective Unconcious can only really be used fully in the first example, and certainly can not be used in the second since these abilities often come in the form of a small aoe hitting the party member which you, as an AST healer, can not afford to be hit by. Take for example T13 progression with mega-flares. As SCH these needed to be Sacred Soiled, as an AST in Nocturnal Sect, you would need to mitigate this as much as possible, however, unless you got targetted yourself by them, Collective Unconcious is not usable, as you simply can not run over to them, put the shield up, and get hit by the mega-flare when you were not a target of it yourself. So, if Collective Unconcious is kept in its current form in Nocturnal Sect, it would mean that for an AST to replace a SCH in progression raid groups, these kind of mechanics will have to never be implimented again. What we have in Nocturnal Sect is an AST trying to be a mitigation healer yet lacking entirely the panoply of spells and shields that are required to not only successfully mitigate damaged, but also the support functionality in terms of raw healing that is also needed to support the mitigation style of healing. In its current iteration, a Nocturnal Sect AST can not replace a SCH in a progression raid group, and these seems to be a bit of a design flaw.

Even in terms of its support functionality on AST, where as you can set up some powerful combinations with the cards, it is entirely based on RNG. If the AST is being pushed towards more support, less healing (hilarious in itself since there are no support classes in the game, only DPS, Tanks and Healers), then this support functionality has to be tied less to RNG. MCH and BRD bring support that has no reliance on RNG at all; you sing the right song at the right time or you promote your turret at the right time. AST has to set up its support through RNG, which can not be relied upon in a raid.

Finally, the way this game is designed, especially in raid, is there is a hard healing check. Always a hard, set-in-stone healing check. You meet that check or you fail. This healing check can not be helped out by any other party members except the 2 healers. It is not like a DPS check where everyone can contribute with healers going into cleric stance and tanks going into dps stance/using STR accessories. There is no helping the healers with their healing checks. A healer class in this game has to be able to meet these checks in progression raids, AST is struggling with this. Even the people who have taken AST into savage have stated it put too much of a burden on the ASt healing partner and it makes the progression harder with an AST in the party. This should not be the case. If AST healing capabilities are not changed with the addition of more "emergency heals" (one really is not enough), then AST has to be able to boost the healing potential of their partner, which it simply does not happen at the moment. If it is going to focus on more support, less healing, AST catagorically has to be able to boost potencies, healing through-put and mana management of your healing partner. So far it does the latter, albeit linked to RNG card draws.

AST needs reconsidering in its current form. Its design does not match up to the design philosophies the developers have centred the raids around. You simply can not have a healing class in the game that does not meet that standards of a progression based raid healer. AST feels on par to a lvl 50 SCH/WHM, and can not compete with a lvl 60 one. It lacks in major departments when it comes to a healer, and this is what it has to be first and foremost; AST catagorically has to be able to heal at the same level of SCH and WHM, if it cant, its support functionality has to branch out into the increase of healing potencies, healing through-put and mana management of the AST healing partner. It does neither at the moment, making it a very underwhelming class to play, and a class that progression based raid groups will more than likely side line. If AST is balanced the same way that every other class in the game is (top down, can perform in raids, ergo can perform everywhere), then i believe it would have major changed to it to reflect that fact its a healer, and has to be able to heal top end content. At the moment, it feels like its tuned bottom-up, to lvl 50 content and not lvl 60 content, and has never seen use in true end game content to test its primary function in healing progression raids. The tuning is taken further by the fact that Nocturnal Sect simply can not compete with a SCH, period. A class like AST has to bring a full suit of abilities that make it able to replace either WHM OR SCH, and it can not do this either at the moment. The class is imbalanced totally and utterly; imbalanced in its healing (or lack of) abilities, imbalanced in its Sect functionality making Nocturnal Sect unable to replace a SCH catagorically, imbalaced in it support functionality unable to make up for its own lack of healing by boosting the healing of its healing partner.

I would love to change from SCH to AST for progression raids, but can not due to the above.

[Ghishlain]

• Future feedback

  The development team is constantly observing in-game data, but they're also using the feedback received on the forums when making future adjustments. Comments regarding how astrologians feel when healing throughout the various areas of content is very useful, so please continue to send us specific requests on each action's effect when battling through the different instances.

Hi, thanks for dropping by, Grukumah =p

Here's some of my thoughts regarding AST in its current incarnation.

I won't comment about the card system as I know that's an incredible PITA to balance as an AST's buffs are directly dependent on RNG, player skill (both the AST and their party), and the AST's familiarity with other classes/jobs. I do like the idea of Ewer / Spire being Royal Roaded to Expand as Expand has the greatest potential increase to a party's power and both Ewer / Spire are situational compared to the other four cards in the deck.

In terms of healing potency, I feel the goal is to give AST more emergency heals as the potency values of the existing cures feel right. So, here are two ideas to consider to help that: (I apologize in advance if these ideas were mentioned somewhere else on these forums)

• Synastry

  Adjust to make it so that it will always affect the target, even if the AST in question is healing a target that has the Synastry buff. This will directly translate into increased HPS that isn't so situational to "two tank fights" like P2 Bismark and A1 Oppressor. If you wish to make this buff more readily available for use, you can also adjust the cool down to be 1 minute and reduce the potency to be 25% to suit the same potency per uptime. While this does in theory make it more potent than Divine Seal, it doesn't take into account AoE heals and HoT ticks, so I figure that's fair.

• Celestial Opposition

  I feel like if you made this ability grant a 15-20 second buff to AST that allows their Aspected spells to take into account BOTH sects, it may fix a lot of complaints about both the ability and the help increase HPS from the AST. It'd probably need some tweaking but I feel it's a good start and I feel fits the theme of AST and sects better.

[Troile]

Hi, thanks for dropping by, Grukumah =p

Here's some of my thoughts regarding AST in its current incarnation.

I won't comment about the card system as I know that's an incredible PITA to balance as an AST's buffs are directly dependent on RNG, player skill (both the AST and their party), and the AST's familiarity with other classes/jobs. I do like the idea of Ewer / Spire being Royal Roaded to Expand as Expand has the greatest potential increase to a party's power and both Ewer / Spire are situational compared to the other four cards in the deck.

In terms of healing potency, I feel the goal is to give AST more emergency heals as the potency values of the existing cures feel right. So, here are two ideas to consider to help that: (I apologize in advance if these ideas were mentioned somewhere else on these forums)

• Synastry

  Adjust to make it so that it will always affect the target, even if the AST in question is healing a target that has the Synastry buff. This will directly translate into increased HPS that isn't so situational to "two tank fights" like P2 Bismark and A1 Oppressor. If you wish to make this buff more readily available for use, you can also adjust the cool down to be 1 minute and reduce the potency to be 25% to suit the same potency per uptime. While this does in theory make it more potent than Divine Seal, it doesn't take into account AoE heals and HoT ticks, so I figure that's fair.

• Celestial Opposition

  I feel like if you made this ability grant a 15-20 second buff to AST that allows their Aspected spells to take into account BOTH sects, it may fix a lot of complaints about both the ability and the help increase HPS from the AST. It'd probably need some tweaking but I feel it's a good start and I feel fits the theme of AST and sects better.

I have to say I like the idea of Celestial Opposition. Makes me wonder why we didn't have a cooldown from the start that allows both sects to be used at once. Though allowing the switching of sects in combat would grant a similar effect on a more consistent basis. Even if it would require two casts as opposed to the same cast. Nice suggestions.

On the other hand.....I feel like the Diurnal and Nocturnal bonuses wouldn't be compatible in the same spell. For instance, the shield effect lends itself to spamming. Ie: Cast aspected for shield - enemy hits tank - tank loses shield - recast aspected. If you were to spam a spell with both the regen and the shield, you would be wasting the previous spell's regen ticks.

Still a nice idea though, but it may be better to keep the bonuses separate by allowing the switching of stances in combat.

Perhaps one way to deal with that using your CO suggestion is to tweak how the regen is applied with each cast. For instance instead of just overwriting the current regen, it extends it for a few seconds with each cast up to a limit. For example:

First cast applies regen for 18 seconds. You cast it the second time with with 5 seconds left, it applies a regen effect for 23 seconds. You cast it again with 20 seconds left, but it only extends it to 30 seconds (the max cap). Of course this would only apply when under the buff effect of Celestial Opposition. When not under the buff effect, recasting a diurnal aspected benefic would simply overwrite the regen like normal.

[Kaelri]

Any Savage1 cleared ASTs that can offer some insight for me?

Just had an attempt on Faust with a pick up group and while our DPS was sitting solid, we wiped twice after the tank died when I ran out of mana.

Our PLD was solo tanking it and i asked him to pop hallowed ground at around 6-7 stacks (i believe 7), he didn't and he died as I'd ran out of mana. I asked him why didn't pop his immunity and he simply said "Hallowed only at 8 stacks", is this typical of a solo tank method?

I feel we would have killed Faust if he'd popped immunity sooner, I tried my absolute best to heal. I love this job and my faith in it is severely shaken after this experience, if anyone can offer insight I'd appreciate it~ thanks.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Any Savage1 cleared ASTs that can offer some insight for me?

Just had an attempt on Faust with a pick up group and while our DPS was sitting solid, we wiped twice after the tank died when I ran out of mana.

Our PLD was solo tanking it and i asked him to pop hallowed ground at around 6-7 stacks (i believe 7), he didn't and he died as I'd ran out of mana. I asked him why didn't pop his immunity and he simply said "Hallowed only at 8 stacks", is this typical of a solo tank method?

I feel we would have killed Faust if he'd popped immunity sooner, I tried my absolute best to heal. I love this job and my faith in it is severely shaken after this experience, if anyone can offer insight I'd appreciate it~ thanks.

Hallowed is useless against Faust after increased pressure happens. It will breach HG and kill the tank regardless. It is basically a hard enrage. Most of the times my static killed Faust was with one or two tanks dead. SCH\AST composition.

As AST, if you can I would suggest to solo heal until Faust gets to 4 stacks to allow the SCH to go full dps. By the end both healers are going to be OOM and tanks will be dying, but it can be done.

[Ghishlain]

I have to say I like the idea of Celestial Opposition. Makes me wonder why we didn't have a cooldown from the start that allows both sects to be used at once. Though allowing the switching of sects in combat would grant a similar effect on a more consistent basis. Even if it would require two casts as opposed to the same cast. Nice suggestions.

On the other hand.....I feel like the Diurnal and Nocturnal bonuses wouldn't be compatible in the same spell. For instance, the shield effect lends itself to spamming. Ie: Cast aspected for shield - enemy hits tank - tank loses shield - recast aspected. If you were to spam a spell with both the regen and the shield, you would be wasting the previous spell's regen ticks.

Still a nice idea though, but it may be better to keep the bonuses separate by allowing the switching of stances in combat.

Perhaps one way to deal with that using your CO suggestion is to tweak how the regen is applied with each cast. For instance instead of just overwriting the current regen, it extends it for a few seconds with each cast up to a limit. For example:

First cast applies regen for 18 seconds. You cast it the second time with with 5 seconds left, it applies a regen effect for 23 seconds. You cast it again with 20 seconds left, but it only extends it to 30 seconds (the max cap). Of course this would only apply when under the buff effect of Celestial Opposition. When not under the buff effect, recasting a diurnal aspected benefic would simply overwrite the regen like normal.

I do like that suggestion for the Regen aspect, and they already have some code for that in the form of Blood of the Dragon and Endochain. So, I can see that working well.

In the end, I hope for a stance switch more than anything else. I would've been absolutely stoked for AST if it kept the stance changing aspect that Yoshi-P initially commented on back at its inception. Ah well.

If anything, even if you're just overriding the Regen all the time, at least it's "something" and not nothing.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[...]Comments regarding how astrologians feel when healing throughout the various areas of content is very useful, so please continue to send us specific requests on each action's effect when battling through the different instances.

When playing Astrologian it feels like it is very weak. Healing is much lower that WHM and even SCH. I have 4 abilities on my hotbar for managing cards, but card buffs are weak and unpredictable. Whilst I'm playing Shuffle roulette to get The Balance, the tank is going into critical HP and my co-healer has to work double hard to keep up - that's a lost DPS opportunity. Why card buffs aren't AoE by default? Once you do your math, you realise single target Bole 1/6 of a time (random chance) for 15 seconds is pointless and doesn't increase overall raid DPS, especially when burst is called for. Why can't we choose what buff to use every time? And don't give me that 'it's written in the stars' nonsense. I've played COR in FFXI, so I know card buffing, even with random aspect, can be done right. AND healing AND doing damage on top of that on the same job.

When this Astrologian in random dungeon twiddles his thumbs wondering who to give this Ewer, my SCH is already dropping Shadow Flare->Bio->Bio II->Miasma II->BANE->Aero>Aero>Aero WHILST my Roused Selene covers the healing, drops 3% Speed on entire party and AoE Erases in an instant. Should I list WHM capabilities too?

Oh, and Celestial Opposition, did I mention Cellestial Opposition? Well, I'm sure someone already has.

Every time I see Astrologian in the party I think to myself "Damn, that's a wasted WHM party spot "

[Daralii]

Oh, and Celestial Opposition, did I mention Cellestial Opposition? Well, I'm sure someone already has.

Every time I see Astrologian in the party I think to myself "Damn, that's a wasted WHM party spot "

The weird thing about CO is that, during the last live letter, Yoshida said it was getting buffed/redesigned, but nothing when the patch came out. Hopefully we can still look forward to it and it wasn't scrapped or pushed back until 3.1.

I don't have AST at 60 so I don't have firsthand experience, but I have no idea what the point of CO is supposed to be.