I Submit for your Perusal ....

[Shougun]

For anything level 15 and above, sure. Give it a serious try until you know that someone in the group is beyond hope. But we are talking about a fight where the new guy can't even understand what he is doing wrong, because he hasn't acquired the "right" moves yet. The only advice you can give the new guy is "you can't do your job properly yet, so just hit stuff quickly with the rest of us".

Are you sure they sync you to level 11 now? For a Gladiator it can be a moment to learn pulling groups before actually doing dungeons (and what your hp can do on larger pulls). I remember when I did my warrior I had overpower, and it was helpful to get situated in that guildhest. Of course I didn't need it (not new to games, or MMOs), but Yoshida's general mantra is early stuff is to help the super super new to games.

Edit:

I still don't understand why they changed that fight. Sure, level 12 made the fight too quick to slam through, but rather than dropping marauder to a level where they can't use a basic move, why didn't they buff the mobs UP one level.

That doesn't make any sense lol. I mean what SE did, your point is excellent and SE should change that if it's true.

[Gunspec]

Are you sure they sync you to level 11 now?

I specifically remember running that guildhest when commendations were first released. Slamming overpower at level 12, I could kill the packs of enemies in 3-4 hits by myself. Basically you could pull the first 6, SLAM SLAM SLAM, run into the purple circle, SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM, get a commendation or two, and repeat.

The next minor patch dropped the level sync down to level 11, and it has been that way since. While I only encountered the trick during my daily roulette (I was leveling warrior at the time), I'm sure that people were exploiting that quick guildhest to maximize their commendations and get the rewards immediately.

[Shougun]

I specifically remember running that guildhest when commendations were first released. Slamming overpower at level 12, I could kill the packs of enemies in 3-4 hits by myself. Basically you could pull the first 6, SLAM SLAM SLAM, run into the purple circle, SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM, get a commendation or two, and repeat.

The next minor patch dropped the level sync down to level 11, and it has been that way since. While I only encountered the trick during my daily roulette (I was leveling warrior at the time), I'm sure that people were exploiting that quick guildhest to maximize their commendations and get the rewards immediately.

As a professional flasher.. xD I did not realize people were so impressed with overpower that it was a commendation generator (although as tank I'm used to getting at least half the coms so maybe I just didn't notice).

If that was the issue they could make an easy fix and stuff a buff into one of the passives. Reduce overpower damage by 50-75%, add to an existing passive buff overpower to original potency (there is a level 14 passive right before a dungeon). Or while a little less intuitive they could add a buff to all the monsters that reduced AoE damage. Either way, lazy and effective = win lol.

I remember taking everything out though and that was pretty cool feeling specially over "Flash", that made me level MRD/WAR to 50 even though I knew I wanted to MT Paladin for all the defense lulz.

[randysquirrel]

Early hests and dungeons it doesn't really matter who does what, anyone can be the tank/healer/dps and it makes very little difference.

I don't agree that's how it should be, if the early dungeons are supposed to be "teaching" new people how stuff is done, showing that anyone can be any role is a bit of a fallacy. imo the early dungeons should be stricter in making people stick to their intended role, and only much later on allowing roles to dip into other territories, with tank/healers throwing in dps, dps helping with mitigation, etc

[Gunspec]

if the early dungeons are supposed to be "teaching" new people how stuff is done, showing that anyone can be any role is a bit of a fallacy.

Well, the first dungeon is level 15, and I think studies have shown that the average mmo player doesn't get past level 20. You're going to get a lot of people in those first few dungeons that are just on the verge of quitting because the game isn't what they expected from Final Fantasy, and their apathy for learning could inhibit other players from getting further if it was too difficult.

Additionally, you have the issue of a ps3 mmo for which MANY players do not have keyboards, and cannot ask or respond to questions. And the final problem... the game launched with the generic "sword guy" class as a tank. I imagine a lot of people chose sword, thinking that it would be the basic easy class, only to find out that it is one of the more demanding roles due to it's leadership position in dungeons.

I think the first three dungeons are there to inform players it will be THAT type of game, and if the player really doesn't want to learn, they quit before getting past 20. Coordination only starts being a thing in Haukke Manor onwards, which is statistically where you will start seeing only the more serious players.

[Rhomagus]

Ya, if anyone bothers to read the guildhest instructors dialogue, the only way to do it the technically correct way is to have someone with a ranged attack pull the enemies then have the tank pull the enemies off of the person who initiated the fight. You'll notice that you'll get different speech bubbles based on how you do that fight. A Warrior in that fight has neither access to Overpower or their ranged attack, and the instructor tells you not to attack everything all at once. The only other way around this is to have either a DPS or a Healer pull with a ranged attack then have the tank pull hate off of the puller.

The guildhest begins with two groups opposite each other, one on the West side, the other on the East. It's fine, if the tank goes in first here, gets initial hate on the enemy, then proceeds to hit each one to establish and keep hate. In this particular instance it's easier for a PLD since they have flash available, unlike WAR who doesn't have access to their innate overpower, they could still flash technically but that's all dependent on how early they put it in their additional abilities list, and if they're a fresh MRD with no cross class abilities then they obviously can't flash at all. Anyways, once you down those two groups, which your supposed to do separately, then the next group spawns. You do not have to be in the circle to spawn the enemies, the circle is only there to warn you that enemies are about to spawn. The fight can literally be done and completed without moving at all.

In the final set you get the same two groups that spawned earlier but now they're together with a Goobbue. This is where the instructor tells you not to just go head first and berates you initially for doing so if you do. People do it anyways but regardless, if you're trying to do the guildhest as per the instructors instructions, then this is not the correct way. At this last spawn, in order to pull the groups separately without incurring the wrath of the goobbue as well, you need the DPS or Healer to attack them from afar initially, thus "pulling" them to your "camp". That's where, as stated above, the tank can rip hate back. You then down both groups. Once you're done, you take out the goobbue to finish the guildhest. This way the instructor won't disparage you so much, but for anyone who is actually paying attention to the text and puts two and two together, tanks at that level have no way of attacking enemies individually at long range.

So the DPS in this instance weren't incorrect even in their reasoning. The tank is both new, and incapable, of performing the guildhest in the traditional way since they are yet to be equipped with the proper tools to do so. Even if the tank is not new to the guildhest, they would effectively be under-leveled for the content to be done in the standard "tank initiates combat first" scenario that is the de facto standard for group content from the first dungeon onward.

All this goes without saying that, if the only new person is the tank, there is no way in hell you should be losing this fight, no matter what's going on. The healer not healing the DPS in this case is being ignorant of how the run is "supposed" to be played out. If anything, the healer should be initiating aggro with an aero or a stone, pulling the group, then letting the tank secure aggro from there, but at this low a level when it can be done just by facerolling, then just get the guildhest done. It's poorly designed from the get go in that there are only a few situations that I can think of where it's best if anyone other than the tank initiates a fight first and it is generally counter intuitive for how the next 40 some odd levels should be run. In other words, it's not a good way to teach party mechanics if you've designed the rest of the mechanics of the tank classes to work differently for the majority of the game. This combined with people not reading, just leads to the situations outlined in the OP.

But ya, that's only if this is the guildhest you're talking about. You called it Low-Level Roulette: Basic Training Enemy Parties, but it's really a Guildhest Roulette. In all other Low-Level Roulette runs the tank should be initiating the fights. That guildhest is one of the very few exceptions.

[Shougun]

Ya, if anyone bothers to read the guildhest instructors dialogue, the only way to do it the technically correct way is to have someone with a ranged attack pull the enemies then have the tank pull the enemies off of the person who initiated the fight. You'll notice that you'll get different speech bubbles based on how you do that fight. A Warrior in that fight has neither access to Overpower or their ranged attack, and the instructor tells you not to attack everything all at once. The only other way around this is to have either a DPS or a Healer pull with a ranged attack then have the tank pull hate off of the puller.

The guildhest begins with two groups opposite each other, one on the West side, the other on the East. It's fine, if the tank goes in first here, gets initial hate on the enemy, then proceeds to hit each one to establish and keep hate. In this particular instance it's easier for a PLD since they have flash available, unlike WAR who doesn't have access to their innate overpower, they could still flash technically but that's all dependent on how early they put it in their additional abilities list, and if they're a fresh MRD with no cross class abilities then they obviously can't flash at all. Anyways, once you down those two groups, which your supposed to do separately, then the next group spawns. You do not have to be in the circle to spawn the enemies, the circle is only there to warn you that enemies are about to spawn. The fight can literally be done and completed without moving at all.

In the final set you get the same two groups that spawned earlier but now they're together with a Goobbue. This is where the instructor tells you not to just go head first and berates you initially for doing so if you do. People do it anyways but regardless, if you're trying to do the guildhest as per the instructors instructions, then this is not the correct way. At this last spawn, in order to pull the groups separately without incurring the wrath of the goobbue as well, you need the DPS or Healer to attack them from afar initially, thus "pulling" them to your "camp". That's where, as stated above, the tank can rip hate back. You then down both groups. Once you're done, you take out the goobbue to finish the guildhest. This way the instructor won't disparage you so much, but for anyone who is actually paying attention to the text and puts two and two together, tanks at that level have no way of attacking enemies individually at long range.

So the DPS in this instance weren't incorrect even in their reasoning. The tank is both new, and incapable, of performing the guildhest in the traditional way since they are yet to be equipped with the proper tools to do so. Even if the tank is not new to the guildhest, they would effectively be under-leveled for the content to be done in the standard "tank initiates combat first" scenario that is the de facto standard for group content from the first dungeon onward.

All this goes without saying that, if the only new person is the tank, there is no way in hell you should be losing this fight, no matter what's going on. The healer not healing the DPS in this case is being ignorant of how the run is "supposed" to be played out. If anything, the healer should be initiating aggro with an aero or a stone, pulling the group, then letting the tank secure aggro from there, but at this low a level when it can be done just by facerolling, then just get the guildhest done. It's poorly designed from the get go in that there are only a few situations that I can think of where it's best if anyone other than the tank initiates a fight first and it is generally counter intuitive for how the next 40 some odd levels should be run. In other words, it's not a good way to teach party mechanics if you've designed the rest of the mechanics of the tank classes to work differently for the majority of the game. This combined with people not reading, just leads to the situations outlined in the OP.

But ya, that's only if this is the guildhest you're talking about. You called it Low-Level Roulette: Basic Training Enemy Parties, but it's really a Guildhest Roulette. In all other Low-Level Roulette runs the tank should be initiating the fights. That guildhest is one of the very few exceptions.

Wow. +1 for reading it, clearly I didn't. -1 for SE, they failed to teach their point and their point is fairly bad. You can grab a single pack via melee range, no need for ranged attack, and managing packs one at a time makes sense but obviously isn't required in this guildhest so not taught.

If a bard pulled all my packs I'd slap him so hard swift song would play during combat. Jk, ish - I'd ask them to stop, and then if it became a problem I may begin a votekick (I would pick up their adds, letting them die is against my tankhood lol). I aim to get my party to the end of every instance, and I'll do it with speed, but being forced out of cadence is annoying and can prevent the end goal.

[I_Punch_Bees]

Um... as someone who regularly heal-tanks sub-level 20 content, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't take too long, anything goes. You get a lot of weird people in low level stuff, from tanks in cloth using nothing but riot blade, to thaumaturges that do nothing but spam blizzard I. I'll give pointers if it seems I might be listented to, but more often than not these folks just keep pressing whatever buttons they like.

And how in the name of god does a conjurer let someone die in the mentioned guildhest? I've run that entire place without even using a single heal, just spamming stone and aero.

The conjuror believed that if the rogue runs out and gets killed doing another player's job, then why waste heals on them? They'll just plummet from full to no health constantly because they are not built to tank.


And though the point you are making is correct (in dealing with weird people in low level roulettes) it doesn't justify the reasoning behind it because the 'tank is new so I, as a DPS will do their job for them'.

[I_Punch_Bees]

Thank you though, for everyone's comments on this. It was quite enlightening.

[odintius]

Thought of this when reading this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7873rVbako as healer just don't heal them waste of mp imo.