The positive Astrologian thread!

[Vihalo]

With that logic scholar is a weaker version of a white mage

No, because scholar and white mage have completely different tasks. Scholar has shielding (protect from damage before it happens) + fairy support so he can dps more freely and white mage has hots and raw powerful healing.
AST is just the weaker version of both in both stances. Just as WingsofAzrael said.

It would have been better to create a new form of healing for AST and not just emulate existing healers in a weaker version.
Why should I bring an already existing healer in a raid in a weaker version with RNG buffs which I cannot count on? In difficult fights you don't want to count on RNG.
Maybe get idea's from other MMO healers, World of Warcraft has 5 healers (+1 additional specc for priest) which all play completely different and bring different styles of healing to the raid.

[Spoekes]

"SCHs strengthen people better than ASTs"
Wrong in so many levels. Selene does a 3% buff to Attack Speed. That is a reduction of less than 0.08 seconds on cast and recast timers. Considering a base of 2.5 to any attack skill (which is lowered by skill speed, which also reduces the efficiency of the Attack Speed buff), it means you get 2.42 instead of 2.5; in a minute, it's a difference of 24.8 casts per minute (with Selene) versus 24 casts (without Selene) - that if the buff stayed for a whole minute, but it lasts for 30 seconds, so the numbers are different. You get 12 casts without Selene for the 30s and 12.4 with Selene. You need like 1.5 minutes of the buff being on you (3 minutes) to get an extra cast, which is the whole purpose of getting a haste buff. In some fights, like A1 Savage, where DPS are all over the place, it's really hard to hit the whole party with it, so the extra DPS Selene adds to the party is actually really low. That's why some people are using Eos instead.

Selene = 3% on party guaranteed
arrow = 10% on 1 DPS or 5% on the party, with the same range restrictions you are bashing on selene.

Now after that correction, 5% is only 2% more than selene, but good luck getting expaned arrow or balance every minute. Arrow is a 16,66% draw chance, like every card.

Now, if you consider the Arrow card, which does 10% attack speed for 15s (which can be doubled either with Royal Road or Time Dilation, or raised to 15% with Royal Road), you reduce the cast/recast timers by 0.25 (this can get less efficient if the targets get skill or spell speed). This means that in the 15 seconds, the DPS can use 6/12 skills in 15/30s without the card and 6.7/13.3 skills with the card. Since the Haste buff does very little to DPS like SMN and it scales down when the target already has much speed (NIN and MNK), and some DPS players say it can mess up their rotations (DRG), the uses of the speed buff are very restricted and in some party compositions one extended Arrow card can do more in 30s than Selene can do in 4 minutes.

So the extended arrow card, which you mathed out to be 13.3 instead of 12 skills, can do more than selene in 4 minutes. Interesting.

On top of that, AST can use a damage buff (which is 10%, just like a cross-classed B4B), a TP /MP buff (which can let your BRD/MCH dps more, since they don't need to give up some damage to refresh TP/MP), a CD reduction buff (which can shorten the Ruin gaps for SMN by making them go into Dread Stance more often, or give NIN more ninjutsus) and also make your tanks get hit for less (which allows more breathing room for healers). Saying that a SCH can buff the party just as well is completely wrong and people have got to stop spreading those misconceptions; not only is a dumb (and dishonest) way to bitch about AST, but it can mess up what people think about SCH – some groups may demand Selene over this when it would be better to have Eos out to do more healing and allow the SCH to DPS more, which is more effective than the buff from Selene in so many cases. That's what I meant earlier when I said that people need to get better and learn more about all the healing jobs, not only AST.

No, its not on top of that, its either or, and that is gated behind RNG.
I'll just leave it by that and you go on making 3 post instead of 1 with editing and call everyone dumb and dishonest.

[VanEinstein]

^ Indeed. If I had a strict DPS check to make, and a choice between:
A) 3% on the party [every 60 seconds for 30 seconds] for the duration of a fight, and
B) 5% on the party [after 120 seconds for 15 seconds] - RNG WILLING throughout the fight -
I'm going to take the consistent guaranteed benefit over something that only MAY happen, and not WILL happen.

I'm aware that doesn't account for the # of potential times you might draw the arrow and use it on a single DPS, but that doesn't change the fact that you may draw that card anywhere between NEVER and ALWAYS, shuffles included. There's no way out of that.

Now.. I'm not very good at math, but this also strikes me as worth noting. Comparing 3% for 30 seconds, against 5% for 15... well, it seems fairly clear to me yet again which I'd prefer if I had a choice. If the comparison were 3% for 15 and 5% for 15, Expanded Arrow would be a clear winner. This isn't the case though. 3% for for twice the duration of Expanded Arrow @ 5% is of ever so slightly more benefit on paper. So let's review: To produce an ideal card combination you require a minimum of 60 seconds, and a maximum of "you may never actually see it". Alternatively, even when using a card every 30 seconds without relying on Royal Road in any way, you're still not guaranteed to be presented an appropriate card in any given moment. With Fey wind I know what I'm getting and when I'm getting it.

I'm fully aware this is only addressing one buff, but it's time to stop pretending like AST buffs aren't gated by RNG and that all cards are equally useful at all times. It doesn't make AST broken per say - they just aren't standing on solid ground, and that's largely the source of so much disquiet.

[Ghishlain]

I'll just add to what Spoekes and Fahna / VanEinstein spoke above

Fey Wind = 100% chance to get a 3% haste buff for 30 seconds every minute = effective average of 1.500% haste every minute
AST = 10.2%* chance to get a 5% haste buff for 15 seconds every minute = effective average of 0.128% haste every minute

* Assuming the AST is aiming for Expand Arrow every minute to match Fey Wind, you have a 33.3% (1/6) chance of getting the right Royal Road and a 30.6% chance of getting Arrow w/ Shuffle up (1 - 5/6*5/6 OR 1/6 + 5/6*1/6)

And even on perfect probability

Fey Wind = 3% haste buff for 30 seconds every minute = average of 1.50% haste every minute
AST = 5% haste buff for 15 seconds every minute = average of 1.25% haste every minute

The more I look at it, the more I feel Arrow should almost never be Expanded and just used on a single target who can make the best use of it (NIN, MNK, OT WAR, any DPS about to begin their burst)

[TatoRazzino]

Can you people read? I said EXTENDED, not EXPANDED. I never said that getting the buff to the whole party as AST is better than using Selene. People bashing AST don't even know what their buffs do, it's pathetic. And you complain about me calling you dumb and dishonest. On top of that: Selene does not affect the DPS output of every single job in the same way. 0.08 less cast time on a SMN GCD does almost nothing for their damage; that on a MNK or BLM has more effect, so focusing a card can do more than using a weak buff on the party. in a fight like Faust, which is very short, the haste buff that Selene provides does nothing to my party, because there's no time for them to get the extra cast, which is basically the only reason to have a haste buff to begin with.

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

Att. Speed is applied to a value that's already modified by Spell/Skill speed. I noticed this when I compared my AST timers. Naked, I had 2s cast time in Noct and 1.9s cast time in Diurnal, meaning that the 5% were calculated considering the 2s and reduced it by 0.1; when I got more spell speed that value changed, and in Diurnal I get a reduction of less than 0.1 in relation to Noct. This changes the HPS output: with spell speed, the HPS rate of Noct became slightly better. Obviously, my HPS in Diurnal is better with spell speed than without it, but my HPS in nocturnal is outperforming it due to the potency increase - and it wasn't before. What I meant when I said that the buff scaled down is that you can't calculate the reduction if you don't know the cast time of your target; that's why I used the base 2.5 values and I wanted to add the information that you can't take the 0.08 reduction as a fixed value, because it changes.

[VanEinstein]

@ TatoRazzino

Fair enough, you did say extended, but that doesn't change things. It's the same as using two of the same card, and not a drop more. You still had to burn one draw to obtain that, and you're still up against the relevant RNG. That never changes, that's what's important to the raiding community at large.

It's funny you should call it bashing though. Folks here are discussing their legitimate concerns. If you don't like it, walk away. You aren't doing yourself or anyone else any favors by getting worked up over it. If you're cool with things as they are, great! Go forth and be merry!

[Ghishlain]

Att. Speed is applied to a value that's already modified by Spell/Skill speed. I noticed this when I compared my AST timers. Naked, I had 2s cast time in Noct and 1.9s cast time in Diurnal, meaning that the 5% were calculated considering the 2s and reduced it by 0.1; when I got more spell speed that value changed, and in Diurnal I get a reduction of less than 0.1 in relation to Noct. This changes the HPS output: with spell speed, the HPS rate of Noct became slightly better. Obviously, my HPS in Diurnal is better with spell speed than without it, but my HPS in nocturnal is outperforming it due to the potency increase - and it wasn't before. What I meant when I said that the buff scaled down is that you can't calculate the reduction if you don't know the cast time of your target; that's why I used the base 2.5 values and I wanted to add the information that you can't take the 0.08 reduction as a fixed value, because it changes.

In my post, I'm not referring to SpS and Haste stacking, I'm talking about Haste stacking with other forms of Haste.

Huton, Greased Lightning, and Arrow stack additively and the faster you can make your MNK and NIN go, the better effect they get. A 15% Attack Speed buff allows them to attack 17.6% faster. Give them arrow for 25% attack speed and they're attacking 33.3% faster. If you're looking at raw attacks, giving Arrow to a job that has a native Attack Speed buffs makes them love you even more (assuming you give them a Spire later for their TP issues).

I'm looking at this buff as a vacuum independent from the target's SkS and SpS because once you're engaged in combat you'll no means of changing that value. Even at a 2.42 GCD, having 15% haste will allow you to attack 17.6% faster compared to 2.42 GCD and 25% haste will allow you to attack 33.3% faster compared 2.42 GCD.

But you are correct in the sense that haste itself is devalued slightly as a stat when put beside SpS and SkS because the two stats multiplicative stack.

Can you people read? I said EXTENDED, not EXPANDED. I never said that getting the buff to the whole party as AST is better than using Selene. People bashing AST don't even know what their buffs do, it's pathetic. And you complain about me calling you dumb and dishonest. On top of that: Selene does not affect the DPS output of every single job in the same way. 0.08 less cast time on a SMN GCD does almost nothing for their damage; that on a MNK or BLM has more effect, so focusing a card can do more than using a weak buff on the party. in a fight like Faust, which is very short, the haste buff that Selene provides does nothing to my party, because there's no time for them to get the extra cast, which is basically the only reason to have a haste buff to begin with.

The thing you have to consider behind Spoekes post is the fact that there is a very heavy RNG element associated with AST's ability and that devalues the buff an AST can provide to a degree.

SCH provides a reliable 1.5% attack speed buff without restriction. While I don't doubt an Enhanced Balance + Time Dilation on a DRG about to start their burst rotation or an Enhance Arrow + Time Dilation on a WAR about to start their burst rotation will outpace the 3% party haste buff for 30s from Selene, you can't reliably count on that to be on your beck and call.

Once you start account for probability and averages into your equation, AST buffs begin to look less and less friendly.

[Ariel_Valmont]

A quick comparison of "Emergency Buttons"

WHM = Benediction
SCH = Lustrate
AST = Essential Dignity

All of those are similar, so each job has that base covered.

WHM = Asylum
SCH = Sacred Soil
AST = Collective Unconsciousness

Again, all similar. Clearly the whm wins out on this one, but all these abilities are more situational than emergency.

WHM = Assize
SCH = Indomitability
AST = Celestial Opposition

The AST ability is definitely weaker than the other two, along with a longer cooldown, when it comes to healing, but the duration extension can be useful if timers are running down, and you don't have time to refresh aspected benific/helios not to mention the card buffs. I would be alright with them adding an aoe heal to this or working it in with the sects (didn't they mention something about this?) But all these abilities are similar once again.

WHM = Presence of Mind, Tetragrammaton, Divine Seal(I personally don't consider this an emergency button cause im using it on cd, with discretion)
SCH = Emergency Tactics, Dissipation.
AST = Lightspeed, Synastry, Time Dilation(although not a heal spell it does increase regens and buffs and can be used in a pinch to save time refreshing them) The reason I mention it, is because it could be altered to have an additional effect depending on stance.

Obviously the WHM wins out, but of the 3 it is the only "pure" healer. And all 3 are capable in the right hands, or fail in the wrong hands. Selene my bring A guaranteed buff, but she does not much the diversity of the buffing power that AST brings to the table period, and said buffs although random, are all helpful. Do I see a bit more help coming the AST way, most likely yes, Is it anywhere near the doom, gloom and misinformation posted about it, no.

I think the biggest help to AST would be to increase the range on helios, aspected helios and the card buffs, there is no reason they should be that short ranged. I am also wondering today if they got the sects wrong, and that diurnal should have the 5%percent potency buff, and Nocturnal could have something else. (seriously, if the shields wont stack with SCH make them work like SCH and add 5% crit.)

All that aside, Astrologions are great, and I enjoy all the posts about what people like about them, keep it coming.

[NorthernLadMSP]

A quick comparison of "Emergency Buttons"
WHM = Assize
SCH = Indomitability
AST = Celestial Opposition

These aren't even in the same category. Assize is phenomenal, Indom is very good. Celestial Opp is pretty, but pretty worthless.