The positive Astrologian thread!

[WingsOfAzrael]

All 3 healers are easy, are whm and sch more powerful? Debatable, I think they have a bit more of an expanded tool kit but they also have been under development for a much longer time frame. Ast is not as weak as people make it out to be and the buffs, although random, do make a difference. I personally feel you usually get the card you need, the key is knowing when and how to use them.

in terms of healing power/negation and utility/oh shit buttons yes they are, ast is just a weaker version of whm with diurnal and a weaker sch with nocturnal and has less oh shit buttons

[Aldebaran92]

To bring back the positive things about Astrologian, I for one absolutely love Essential Dignity, especially when it crits for 10k on targets with low HP. Oh, the satisfaction. Also, the visuals for all attacks are amazing.

I also love disproving people in extreme roulette who seem to prepare themselves for countless wipes when they see that I am an Astrologian. For example, I once met a Warrior in Neverreap who tried to force me to go Nocturnal, claiming that 5% more potency and shields would be necessary, since Warriors take more damage than Paladins. I firmly stated that Diurnal's regen potency is far greater in the long run and that I would not change, he went lol and proceeded with his speed-run. I healed, buffed and DPSed and no-one ever came close to dying. By the end of it, he admitted that it was one of the smoothest runs he'd ever had with an Astrologian. Not that I needed to hear that, but it was still nice.

[Cynfael]

To bring back the positive things about Astrologian, I for one absolutely love Essential Dignity, especially when it crits for 10k on targets with low HP. Oh, the satisfaction. Also, the visuals for all attacks are amazing.

I also love disproving people in extreme roulette who seem to prepare themselves for countless wipes when they see that I am an Astrologian. For example, I once met a Warrior in Neverreap who tried to force me to go Nocturnal, claiming that 5% more potency and shields would be necessary, since Warriors take more damage than Paladins. I firmly stated that Diurnal's regen potency is far greater in the long run and that I would not change, he went lol and proceeded with his speed-run. I healed, buffed and DPSed and no-one ever came close to dying. By the end of it, he admitted that it was one of the smoothest runs he'd ever had with an Astrologian. Not that I needed to hear that, but it was still nice.

As ready as I am to point out the areas where AST needs work, I also say it's completely out of line for another player to make that kind of assumption simply because you are playing AST. That's just as bad as these people who claim AST is mechanically powerful and needs no tweaks at all.

It's not like AST can't do the job in skilled hands; the complaints are because the other healers have more advantages, not because AST = wipe. Good for you for demonstrating what a decent player can accomplish.

[Vlady]

Nice. I love hearing stories of what astro can do in the right hands.

[TatoRazzino]

"SCHs strengthen people better than ASTs"
Wrong in so many levels. Selene does a 3% buff to Attack Speed. That is a reduction of less than 0.08 seconds on cast and recast timers. Considering a base of 2.5 to any attack skill (which is lowered by skill speed, which also reduces the efficiency of the Attack Speed buff), it means you get 2.42 instead of 2.5; in a minute, it's a difference of 24.8 casts per minute (with Selene) versus 24 casts (without Selene) - that if the buff stayed for a whole minute, but it lasts for 30 seconds, so the numbers are different. You get 12 casts without Selene for the 30s and 12.4 with Selene. You need like 1.5 minutes of the buff being on you (3 minutes) to get an extra cast, which is the whole purpose of getting a haste buff. In some fights, like A1 Savage, where DPS are all over the place, it's really hard to hit the whole party with it, so the extra DPS Selene adds to the party is actually really low. That's why some people are using Eos instead.

[TatoRazzino]

Now, if you consider the Arrow card, which does 10% attack speed for 15s (which can be doubled either with Royal Road or Time Dilation, or raised to 15% with Royal Road), you reduce the cast/recast timers by 0.25 (this can get less efficient if the targets get skill or spell speed). This means that in the 15 seconds, the DPS can use 6/12 skills in 15/30s without the card and 6.7/13.3 skills with the card. Since the Haste buff does very little to DPS like SMN and it scales down when the target already has much speed (NIN and MNK), and some DPS players say it can mess up their rotations (DRG), the uses of the speed buff are very restricted and in some party compositions one extended Arrow card can do more in 30s than Selene can do in 4 minutes.

[Ghishlain]

Now, if you consider the Arrow card, which does 10% attack speed for 15s ... scales down when the target already has much speed (NIN and MNK).

Just wanted to do a small correction to this. Haste is one of those effects that actually scale higher the more you stack of it. Consider the following:

Base attack speed is 100s (for the sake of easy math)

Huton from Ninja increases attack speed by 15%. In this case, it shaves 15s off your base attack speed.

100 / 85 = 1.176 or a 17.6% increase in how fast a Ninja attacks.

Now, let's consider adding Arrow to that. I believe similar effects are additive, therefore total attack speed reduction is 25% (25s in this case).

Increased from base speed = 100 / 75 = 1.333 = 33.3% increase in attack speed.
Increased from Ninja's normal w/ Huton = 85/75 = 1.133 = 13.3% increase in attack speed.

So, barring TP constraints due to just attacking way too fast (which can be fixed with a Spire later), it's better to put Arrow on jobs that have native attack speed boosts to give them even more power with it.

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

Att. Speed is applied to a value that's already modified by Spell/Skill speed. I noticed this when I compared my AST timers. Naked, I had 2s cast time in Noct and 1.9s cast time in Diurnal, meaning that the 5% were calculated considering the 2s and reduced it by 0.1; when I got more spell speed that value changed, and in Diurnal I get a reduction of less than 0.1 in relation to Noct. This changes the HPS output: with spell speed, the HPS rate of Noct became slightly better. Obviously, my HPS in Diurnal is better with spell speed than without it, but my HPS in nocturnal is outperforming it due to the potency increase - and it wasn't before. What I meant when I said that the buff scaled down is that you can't calculate the reduction if you don't know the cast time of your target; that's why I used the base 2.5 values and I wanted to add the information that you can't take the 0.08 reduction as a fixed value, because it changes.

[Ghishlain]

Att. Speed is applied to a value that's already modified by Spell/Skill speed. I noticed this when I compared my AST timers. Naked, I had 2s cast time in Noct and 1.9s cast time in Diurnal, meaning that the 5% were calculated considering the 2s and reduced it by 0.1; when I got more spell speed that value changed, and in Diurnal I get a reduction of less than 0.1 in relation to Noct. This changes the HPS output: with spell speed, the HPS rate of Noct became slightly better. Obviously, my HPS in Diurnal is better with spell speed than without it, but my HPS in nocturnal is outperforming it due to the potency increase - and it wasn't before. What I meant when I said that the buff scaled down is that you can't calculate the reduction if you don't know the cast time of your target; that's why I used the base 2.5 values and I wanted to add the information that you can't take the 0.08 reduction as a fixed value, because it changes.

In my post, I'm not referring to SpS and Haste stacking, I'm talking about Haste stacking with other forms of Haste.

Huton, Greased Lightning, and Arrow stack additively and the faster you can make your MNK and NIN go, the better effect they get. A 15% Attack Speed buff allows them to attack 17.6% faster. Give them arrow for 25% attack speed and they're attacking 33.3% faster. If you're looking at raw attacks, giving Arrow to a job that has a native Attack Speed buffs makes them love you even more (assuming you give them a Spire later for their TP issues).

I'm looking at this buff as a vacuum independent from the target's SkS and SpS because once you're engaged in combat you'll no means of changing that value. Even at a 2.42 GCD, having 15% haste will allow you to attack 17.6% faster compared to 2.42 GCD and 25% haste will allow you to attack 33.3% faster compared 2.42 GCD.

But you are correct in the sense that haste itself is devalued slightly as a stat when put beside SpS and SkS because the two stats multiplicative stack.

Can you people read? I said EXTENDED, not EXPANDED. I never said that getting the buff to the whole party as AST is better than using Selene. People bashing AST don't even know what their buffs do, it's pathetic. And you complain about me calling you dumb and dishonest. On top of that: Selene does not affect the DPS output of every single job in the same way. 0.08 less cast time on a SMN GCD does almost nothing for their damage; that on a MNK or BLM has more effect, so focusing a card can do more than using a weak buff on the party. in a fight like Faust, which is very short, the haste buff that Selene provides does nothing to my party, because there's no time for them to get the extra cast, which is basically the only reason to have a haste buff to begin with.

The thing you have to consider behind Spoekes post is the fact that there is a very heavy RNG element associated with AST's ability and that devalues the buff an AST can provide to a degree.

SCH provides a reliable 1.5% attack speed buff without restriction. While I don't doubt an Enhanced Balance + Time Dilation on a DRG about to start their burst rotation or an Enhance Arrow + Time Dilation on a WAR about to start their burst rotation will outpace the 3% party haste buff for 30s from Selene, you can't reliably count on that to be on your beck and call.

Once you start account for probability and averages into your equation, AST buffs begin to look less and less friendly.

[TatoRazzino]

On top of that, AST can use a damage buff (which is 10%, just like a cross-classed B4B), a TP /MP buff (which can let your BRD/MCH dps more, since they don't need to give up some damage to refresh TP/MP), a CD reduction buff (which can shorten the Ruin gaps for SMN by making them go into Dread Stance more often, or give NIN more ninjutsus) and also make your tanks get hit for less (which allows more breathing room for healers). Saying that a SCH can buff the party just as well is completely wrong and people have got to stop spreading those misconceptions; not only is a dumb (and dishonest) way to bitch about AST, but it can mess up what people think about SCH – some groups may demand Selene over this when it would be better to have Eos out to do more healing and allow the SCH to DPS more, which is more effective than the buff from Selene in so many cases. That's what I meant earlier when I said that people need to get better and learn more about all the healing jobs, not only AST.