Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Goodberry]

I don't actually know how to start this reply nor do I often post on here. So i shall start by saying that everything here will be my opinion and should only be viewed as one persons view of the current state of the game.

It appears to me as time goes on that the community especially end game is getting increasingly more toxic.

Exhibit A: This thread was created about a group that kicked someone for simply making a mistake and bothering to ask for clarification from what he was originally told about the fight.

We have people going back and forth between "watch a video" or "read a guide", as well as people saying that they wish to simply enjoy the game and learn from it the way that every group that creates these "Guides" has actually done themselves. We watch guides yet only see the win that they achieved and not the countless times they have wiped learning that fight. Then to make it worse it becomes assumed that everyone else who has watched that video must be able to replicate what they saw and avoid all mechanics within just a small couple of attempts.

The justification people use for being rude is "don't waste our time". I would beg to differ that by playing FFXIV you are currently "wasting your time" due to the fact you are currently using extra time you have outside of real life duties to be playing said game.

This toxicity even stems into party finder where we ask people to go to learn. often getting learning groups who disband after a few failed attempts or get someone who rage quits. You also have the groups that want to clear yet refuse to accept any mistakes with aggressive comments such as "will kick if your bad" or "don't make mistakes". We are humans and we are an imperfect species.

Yet we treat each other like dirt and demand everyone to be perfect. the sad thing is it wont ever end, everyone is entitled to their opinions and ideals. we just often suffer from it.

Thank for taking the time to read this if you did. again its just my opinion and I know mine are often not shared with others.

Great post, I agree 100%.

[Deathmask]

Square Enix is the one to blame. Since FFXI they create game mechanics where being a newbie is a punishemnt and the only way to prevail is to study the game outside like a job and have a hard skin against harassment.

Gms don't/can't do anything about it, Devs don't really bother about it (i think after 10 years of FFXI they actually encourage players to be assholes towards newbies since all of them are in endgame linkshells/free companies).

There is only one way to get over this. Find yourself a good endgame FC that has mature and patient veterans willing to teach and then reward them with skill. Everyone wins.


If players have the tools to be douchebags then they will be for sure. Its up to Square to change the way endgame works so this abuse ends once and for all. But they won't change it, so it's up to you.

[Goodberry]

Alright, I'm tired, so, I'm not going to bother quoting etc save one bit. Just too tired to even bother with that.


If anyone is wondering about my attitude, and why I am reacting so strongly, it is because in general I have a severe dislike for those who use the anonymity of the internet as an excuse to treat other human beings as someone, or something, less than you and beneath your station or time because they do not, or have not done as you would have wished them to. The world itself doesn't work that way, and if one believes it to be otherwise, well, likely disappointment will be a constant companion.

That is it, to summarize my feelings.

And I am seeing a massive amount of that in this thread from people. So yes, it gets to me. I try and treat other people with respect and dignity at all times. Something I am failing at in this thread but we all have our moments. This is just one of mine, where I am admittedly getting slightly terse. And the reason that sparks that is because I feel people just generally view this whole situation with...such...vitriol...such massive hate.

All because they come into DF, Duty finder mind you, saying something along the lines of one of two things.

1: Hey guys, New to this. Watched a video but don't remember everything. So, I might need to ask some questions.

2: Hey folks, new to this dungeon. Forgive me for asking but once we get to the bosses is it ok if I have a brief rundown so I don't wipe the party/raid?

Nowhere did I ever say " Hey, it's cool if the guy comes in not ever having done it, never asks questions, and continuously wipes the party/raid. That's on the group because...reasons. DF. Peace. "

Now, I've skimmed my replies (Bear with me, I'm tired, just got off work) and as far as I can see nowhere did I ever say the above paragraph was cool with me. Or even some remote semblance of it. Yet I have seen others imply that I have felt that someone coming in blind and saying nothing, and wiping the Party/Raid and never piping up is kosher.

It's not. Period. When you type out and they don't reply, despite all your attempts, then the kick is justified.

In fact I've had an entire FC in Crystal Tower back in the day when it was just part 1, intentionally troll and wipe the entire raid. Repeatedly. So yes, I know frustration.


Where I take issue is when people react to someone saying something along the lines of 1 or 2, and reacting very powerfully that their time is being wasted and OMG KICK THEM NOW.

And yes, I have seen this. Repeatedly. Quite often in Syrcus or World of Darkness especially. Thankfully, the group for the most part shouted those people down and voted to not kick the new player in question when said complainer brought it up. Then they helped, offered advice, and hey...look at that. Quick 2 minute explanation and everyone clears.

This is what I take issue with. This...sense of entitlement, this sense of their time being wasted. In a freaking game of all things. This sense of arrogance, where someone new comes in and genuinely asks for help and wants to learn, and is treated thoroughly like trash, dismissed as worthless, and spat upon immediately in retaliation.

And yes...this happens. A lot. And quite frankly it pisses me off to no end to see someone who is trying to learn and genuinely attempt things instead of being an outright troll or a faceroller, being treated as trash like that. All because they didn't watch a video, according to [Insert Complainer Here].

Seriously...that's petty. That's beyond petty. It truly is.

Now...as for me demonizing others...as I was told...




Not that I have been, as I feel I haven't...but, when people say things like this, do I really need to even try?


On that note...I'm out.

To summarize:

Party Finder? Cool. You have a right to complain.

Duty Finder? Where it's random? A gamble on what you will get? To expect people to do as you wish in Duty Finder before you even click Join, is absolute folly.

It's a tick mark box and a random group of people thrown together, by design, to help people clear content because otherwise we'd all end up back in the days of WoW where only .1% (Exaggeration) saw Illidan.

I'll take the bumps in the road over that any day, thanks.

I agree 100% with you too! And yes, the amount of vitriol and hate is baffling.

[Kaedan94]

Since FFXI they create game mechanics where being a newbie is a punishemnt and the only way to prevail is to study the game outside like a job and have a hard skin against harassment.

There is literally no difference between going into content and asking if there's anything you should know, and looking it up online yourself. In both cases, you are seeking knowledge about the mechanics. So by your own statement, asking about mechanics in-game is also "studying like a job".

However, looking it up yourself is usually more reliable/helpful, as often people either don't want to explain once you're inside, or the mechanics are difficult to explain just using text.

[Adventica6]

Currently the situation is exactly like how ff11 was, you either know what you're doing, and are welcomed, or you are a noob scrub and are never invited to groups and people are warned about you.

before it was 2 wipes per vote abandon, now it's getting to the 1 wipe area.

You either suck or you are good, and it's exceedingly noticeable if you suck ( only 8 player groups in df etc )

[Goodberry]

@Kaeden

No one left time for conversation. We wiped, we respawned, the tank immediately pulled. It was the third phase and the boss was down to ~15% HP. I thought we'd been doing okay, a wipe or two isn't the end of the world in a DF group.
<snip>
Seriously, my point isn't IT WASN'T MY FAULT, WAHH, WHY ME. It very well could have been my fault. My point is that I don't even know what I did wrong, because rather than just say one little pointer between respawns, or even a simple "DRG needs to _____", or even a rude "DRG wiped us, stop _____ing" I got yelled at and immediately booted. That shouldn't be how you raid. If I really was messing up on a mechanic over and over, TELL ME SO I CAN FIX IT.

It seems you ran into a group of run-of-the-mill jerks. They abound. Luckily there are also still good people around.

[Sapphic]

Snip

So the gist of it is that you want other players to accomodate for you by typing it out a guide inside the content, but you are unwilling to accomodate them by reading a guide already written?

Also, you do get players selecting languages they cannot understand or communicate in, in some extreme cases out right refuse to going into hard content blind. Should we have to learn another language to accomodate those players also. FYI I speak 3 languages already, auto translate does not cut it. Especially if you dont know the languages grammer and structure.

Expecting others to do for you what you are perfectly capable of doing for yourself is entitlement and selfish.

[Klamor]

It's common courtesy and good manners to at least know what the fight mechanics are before using DF.

Common courtesy and good manners... I can't stress this enough. People expect others to at least have an idea of what they're getting into before jumping into something. To put some perspective on it, you have to basically know what you're doing before you can be licensed to drive on public streets. You have to have knowledge both academic and practical, before you're allowed to perform a trade. Taking this "it's just a game" mindset and warping everything to suit your own needs and basically saying "fuck you" to anyone else that's come before you is just as disrespectful.

Putting it back in line; yes, this is just a game. But you're here with other, real-live human beings on the other side of those pixels. Just as you wouldn't jump into a sport without having first reviewed at least a rulebook of the game, don't just expect the people around you to hold your hand and guide you from the hazards that will surely result in your (pixel-y) death. A person way back in this thread said that only "bad" players need to look at a guide... (metaphor alert) well, I really hope you don't live anywhere near me, and that hopefully you haven't killed anyone since you probably didn't read your driver's handbook before you jumped behind the wheel. (/end metaphor)

[Sartori]

I'll preface this by admitting that it's a rant thread. I'm angry and am just venting. You can ignore this thread if you wish.....



What is it with all these Elitist players who expect you to know everything about a run the first time you attempt it, and won't offer any explanations even when you make it clear that you are new, then proceed to kick players after one failed attempt for not knowing what they didn't bother to explain?

/endrant

Welcome to the DF, please look forward to it....not

[MeiUshu]

[QUOTE=Klamor;3165721]Common courtesy and good manners... I can't stress this enough. People expect others to at least have an idea of what they're getting into before jumping into something. To put some perspective on it, you have to basically know what you're doing before you can be licensed to drive on public streets.

But in order to pass the exam to get a driving licence, you take driving lessons with someone sitting near you and bringing you along by hours of teaching. I hope you dont say that in order to take a driving licence you need to look up a site and when you are a pro in that you can take the driving test right ?

I think your example goes towards those that say you need to be taught and not just read....eh?

Just me though....this is a sterile conversation as it is..pointless....some feel their god ways give them all the rights ..nothing you or me can do about it just hope for the best and move on.

Mei