Strength Tanks and You.

[Gyson]

Must've missed the memo where the dev team said specifically they tuned fights so that parties without MTs with STR accessories wouldn't be able to meet DPS checks.

Probably because (as you're implying) fights aren't designed to require tanks in strength gear. That's just something players choose to do, basically exchanging one crutch for another.

As long as I'm using my cooldowns properly, avoiding excess damage where possible (e.g. AOEs, telegraphs, etc).. basically avoiding mistakes during the battle, I know that should I die (and that death results in a wipe) the fault is not mine - provided I've also maxed out my health pool. I have done everything possible at that point to extend my time until death. On the other hand, tanks who choose to nerf their health pools by several thousand hitpoints will always have a party wondering how things would have gone if that tank's life-bar were just a little bit longer.

Simply put, instead of wiping I've had way too many fights wind up just barely in the win column with a handful of hitpoints left on my character. On the other hand, I've never had a fight fail because I wasn't putting out a little extra damage as a tank. Folks in this thread can theory-craft back and forth all they like, but I prefer the actual data from my in-game experiences. I'm not saying there aren't times when all that extra health isn't needed, but when the stuff hits the fan it's good to have it. And since the very nature of stuff hitting the fan usually comes in the form of a surprise, it's better to be prepared in advance than caught with your virtual pants down.

[Freyyy]

I am a seasoned Warrior and able to confirm this. I have experimented with the whole "STR gear" thing and I can tell you that if you wish to play tank and you want to hold hate, it's just better to invest in the highest ilvl weapon. STR armor/accessories just don't do anything to help hold hate compared to battle damage built into the weapon.

Lol you're not a seasoned Warrior at all if you really are serious when saying this. The point of building STR is not holding better enmity at all. It's a nice bonus, that's about it. Yes, for every job, getting the highest ilvl weapon is THE go-to thing. But STR accessories (and you also said "armor/accessories" which prove that you don't really know what you are talking about as we always get both VIT AND STR on our armor) are a MASSIVE increase in damage which must be considered, with almost no cost at all when you are a good tank (I've argued enough about it in previous pages, not gonna repeat, you just don't need all that chunk of HP).

Probably because (as you're implying) fights aren't designed to require tanks in strength gear. That's just something players choose to do, basically exchanging one crutch for another.

For 2.0, fights were not designed to require tanks and healers DPSing, yeah. But Yoshida said specifically that now that high-end raiders are doing crazy raid-DPS by getting tanks and healers DPSing, they designed Heavensward encouters DPS checks with tanks AND healers DPSing in mind. It means that you will no longer be able to meet DPS checks if you only have 4 good DPS and tanks just tanking and healers just healing. You're gonna NEED these STR tanks swapping to DPS stance and these healers swapping to cleric whenever they can to ATLEAST meet the enrage timer.

That's what Yoshi said, we'll see in a couple of days when Savage mode comes out.

[Zfz]

But Yoshida said specifically that now that high-end raiders are doing crazy raid-DPS by getting tanks and healers DPSing, they designed Heavensward encouters DPS checks with tanks AND healers DPSing in mind.

Source please?

Because in May, he emphasized again that raid encounters are not tuned with healer dps in mind.

This isn't to refute what you've said, because in a lot of situations (especially involving PUGs) you're absolutely right in that the safety is worth more than extra damage. In my own in-game experiences however I have definitely seen fights won and lost by extra damage output done by tanks and healers far more frequently (both raids and dungeons) than it probably should be. I'm talking about repeated wipes at low percentages in half-PUG groups where I finally tell our off-tank to put on all his strength gear and the wipes turn into clears.

I think this really depends on the group. There are more times than I can remember when I (as full VIT build) survive hairy moments with less than 2k HP. Then the heals drop on me and we go on to win the fight.

Bottom line, VIT builds are not as "useless" and "noob" and "harmful to the raid" as many STR supporters make it sound.

[Tsunenori]

Bottom line, VIT builds are not as "useless" and "noob" and "harmful to the raid" as many STR supporters make it sound.

I agree! There's a lot of hyperbole in both sides about these kinds of things, just like there was with the Healer DPS debates. Ultimately you should be doing your best to be adaptable and flexible as a player, and when I tank I definitely keep multiple gear sets on my bar to switch to depending on my group or on how we're doing.

[Freyyy]

Source please?

Because in May, he emphasized again that raid encounters are not tuned with healer dps in mind.

The source is I think the same thing we both refer to. He said that CURRENTLY, encounters are not tuned with healers and tank DPSing in mind, but seeing what crazy things high-end raiders were able to do by optimizing their healer and tank DPS, they decided to build fights with this new factor in mind for Heavensward raids, thus increasing the difficulty a bit. Beating an enrage timer will be really tougher than it is now.

[Zfz]

The source is I think the same thing we both refer to. He said that CURRENTLY, encounters are not tuned with healers and tank DPSing in mind, but seeing what crazy things high-end raiders were able to do by optimizing their healer and tank DPS, they decided to build fights with this new factor in mind for Heavensward raids, thus increasing the difficulty a bit. Beating an enrage timer will be really tougher than it is now.

This one? http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...26_703330.html

そうですね。レベル60で全ジョブとも今まで以上にDPSが上がっているので、白魔道士も見合った分だけ伸びるという意味なだけです。もともと開発チームでは、大迷宮バハムートなど、レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

　ただ、確かに世界トップレベルの人たちは、最速攻略争いをするので、開発が想定したアイテムレベルよりも、低いアイテムレベルでクリアを目指します。そうなると、4DSPとタンクの基礎DPSだけでは数値的にクリアできなくなり、結果、出せるDPSがあるなら、少しでも多くDPSを、ということで彼らはヒーラーのDPSも計算して攻略しようとします。それらのクリア動画が出ると、ヒーラーもDPSを出しているため、「ヒーラーもDPSを！」と思われがちですが、それは「無理をしてクリアしようとしている」から発生しているシチュエーションです。これを完全に数値で足切りして、想定アイテムレベル以下ではクリアできないように作ることも可能なのですが、それではプレーヤースキルの高い人たちに、工夫して全員の意思疎通やアイテム理解度を上げ、ギリギリのギリギリを付いてクリアする、という遊びを無くしてしまうことになります。難しい判断ではありますが、やはり固定パーティーの方針次第かなと思っています。

　このことは今回機工城アレキサンダーがノーマルとハードの2つを実装することになった理由の一因でもあります。繰り返しになりますが、開発チームはレイドの攻略にヒーラーのDPSを含めていませんので、今回のレベルキャップ開放でも他のジョブと比べて、ヒーラーとしての上昇分を足しただけと思って欲しいです。

You must be referring to something else I don't know about, because in this, there's nothing about building fights with healer and tank dps in mind.

What it does say, is that they take the 4DPS+Tank's base dps, lower that by 10~15%, and that's the minimum dps you need to clear that encounter.

[Gyson]

For 2.0, fights were not designed to require tanks and healers DPSing, yeah. But Yoshida said specifically that now that high-end raiders are doing crazy raid-DPS by getting tanks and healers DPSing, they designed Heavensward encouters DPS checks with tanks AND healers DPSing in mind. It means that you will no longer be able to meet DPS checks if you only have 4 good DPS and tanks just tanking and healers just healing. You're gonna NEED these STR tanks swapping to DPS stance and these healers swapping to cleric whenever they can to ATLEAST meet the enrage timer.

That's what Yoshi said, we'll see in a couple of days when Savage mode comes out.

What I underlined above is not fact, nor his words, but how you're choosing to interpret his comments. There's a wold of difference between keeping tank DPS in mind when designing encounters and requiring tanks to spec/gear for damage.

[lololink]

What I underlined above is not fact, nor his words, but how you're choosing to interpret his comments. There's a wold of difference between keeping tank DPS in mind when designing encounters and requiring tanks to spec/gear for damage.

It is for healer DPSing, never read or heard him saying that for tanks or the opposite though.

[Tsunenori]

snip

This isn't to refute what you've said, because in a lot of situations (especially involving PUGs) you're absolutely right in that the safety is worth more than extra damage. In my own in-game experiences however I have definitely seen fights won and lost by extra damage output done by tanks and healers far more frequently (both raids and dungeons) than it probably should be. I'm talking about repeated wipes at low percentages in half-PUG groups where I finally tell our off-tank to put on all his strength gear and the wipes turn into clears.

And as far as dungeons go, granted this is optimal conditions, but the tank I spend the majority of the time playing with is always in strength gear and frequently in Deliverance doing as much damage as he can. I spend my time in Cleric the majority of the dungeon, and no one's less safe for it. He's never in danger of dying, nor is the group, and the result is that we'll frequently have sub-20 minute runs of the Heavensward dungeons for it. As far as the opening post of the thread goes, I myself as a healer have the most fun in these kinds of runs instead of the 40 minute slogs with low damage output from the whole group due to a variety of reasons.

Ultimately this debate feels the same as the Healer DPS debate. If you're alone with PuGs or you don't trust your group members (or you're undergeared!) you should probably be playing on the safer side of things with your vitality accessories rather than going full damage. There's a place for strength accessories, and if your healers are struggling for whatever reason, or the group isn't really clicking, then that is not the place for strength gear. Sometimes I pull tanks from the Duty Finder who seem to have a yearning for the grave and do their best to take huge damage, stand in everything, and never pop cooldowns. Those are the runs I can't DPS much in, but I don't think that invalidates the DPS. Much the same, I don't think strength accessories are less crucial to good play just because they can be marginalized in a rough group.

Edit: I also forgot to mention big tank busters. If you're getting hit in the face with those you should also probably be using vitality accessories.