Strength Tanks and You.

[Zfz]

I want to present a counter-argument to the often cited notion that extra HP is wasted because you don't need it.

Needing it and wasting it are two completely different matters and the argument is mistaking them for the same.

While it is true that most encounters don't need the full amount of HP a full VIT build gives, that "extra" HP is by no means wasted. When you only have 13k HP, the healer can only heal you up to 13k and anything above that is overheal. The next time you take a 5k hit, you are at 8k. When you have 17k HP, the healer can heal you for the same and any heal that ended up as overheal in the 13k case are now turned into real, solid, raw HP. Plus your self-heals (yes DRK/WARs especially) are now all getting the same VIP treatment: they're getting turned into HP. Now you are at 17k and you take a 5k hit, you end up at 12k even though the healer only healed you for the same amount as the 13k tank.

Extra HP is not wasted. It may not be needed, but it is not wasted. If you base your argument on "not needed = wasted" then you are making a very big logical error.

[Hix]

Delaying coming out of cleric stance does not actually give your healer more DPS. Because the tank will need more healing to top him back off, you're delaying going back into cleric stance so it's all a wash. If you aren't topping the tank so that you can go back into Cleric faster, then the extra VIT was wasted anyway. If the tank needs so much healing that you have no time to go back into Cleric... you probably shouldn't be DPSing in the first place and increasing the Tank's health is not going to change the amount of healing needed.

The only thing that extra VIT gives you is more reaction time. If the Tank has enough VIT to survive a tankbuster then any extra VIT is just buying healers more time to recognize they need to heal, at the cost of raid wide DPS. In otherwords, extra VIT on a tank is a crutch to help bad healers. Healers who whine about not enough VIT on a tank who isn't getting globaled is pretty much a sign that a healer isn't as good as they could be.

[FallenWings]

The amount of DPS a healer can dish out in Cleric Stance massively trumps the DPS of a tank in STR gear. A healer will sometimes allow a tank to drop a bit in health to stay in Cleric Stance longer (this is more true for WHM and AST because they don't have the luxury of free heals from a fairy). A tank with VIT gear can take more hits before he hits the 50% HP mark, allowing for the healer to DPS more, and thus, decreasing the run time significantly.

Basically
A bad STR tank = certain death
A good STR = managable but not optimal
A bad VIT tank = mobs running everywhere but can limp through if DPS back off
A good VIT tank = healer and DPS can go all out and have trash dead before a heal is even needed.

This is only true for Trash Mobs and the initial starts of encounters.

Having more VIT does not mean you heal less, infact if you're topping off a tank for whatever reason outside of appropriate preparation for Tank Busters, you're just healing more.

A healer will always need to match the incoming damage with their output and thus will always have to forgo DPSing.

Whereas a tank is always attacking regardless of the healers output. So in boss fights or extensive mobs where healing output is required past the tank's HP, a tank's DPS does infact do significantly more because a healer cannot decrease the amount of times they need to heal the tank outside of the tank's CD usage.

To put into perspective:

Healer Damage per GCD is 400.

Tank A Damage per GCD is 150

Tank B Damage per GCD is 100

Healer heals for 3k HP per GCD

Tank A has 13k HP

Tank B has 17k HP.

Both Tanks take 1000 Damage per GCD (2.5secs).

Tank A is reduced to 1k HP after 12 GCD's and will require healer attention.

Tank B is reduced to 1k HP after 16 GCD's and will require healer attention.

Healer heals Tank A for 3k HP, 3k/13k HP, effectively giving themselves 2 GCD's to continue DPSing before needing to heal again.

Healer heals Tank B for 3k HP, 3k/17k HP, effectively giving themselves 2 GCD's to continue DPSing before needing to heal again.

See what's happening here?

This is ongoing until mob or boss is dead.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over 16 GCDs (16K Damage dealt to tanks)

The healer would have contributed 6000 Damage with Tank A

Tank A would have contributed 2400 Damage

Total Damage of 8400

The healer would have contributed 6400 Damage with Tank B

Tank B would have contributed 1600 Damage

Total Damage of 8000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over 100 GCDs (100k Damage dealt to tanks)

The healer would have contributed 28400 Damage with Tank A (Tank A needed 29 GCD's of Heals)

Tank A would have contributed 15000 Damage

Total damage dealt of 43400

The healer would have contributed 28800 Damage with Tank B (Tank B needed 28 GCD's of Heals)

Tank B would have contributed 10000 Damage

Total damage dealt of 38800



But Fallen these examples are worthless! Tank A is always better even WITH the smaller GCD sample!

Exactly sonny boy. Exactly.

I inflated the healer DPS from 200-400 btw. Anymore and you're just bullshitting yourselves.

[Khemorex]

snip

oh no , the tanks should actually have more vit , i mean when i play sch id like to have the extra 5 sec to dish out more dps , the str tanks are crippling me and forcing me to heal only , oh wait healing is my job :P i forgot its the job of the tanks to dps :P

[Freyyy]

snip

Oh man I loooooooooove you I was too lazy to do such math. Add to that the superior self-heals over time that the tank gets by dealing more damage and it's per-fecto.


People should really stop thinking that STR tanks are making healers DPS less and thus lowering the party-DPS. It's completely wrong in so many ways. However, bad tanks are, and it has nothing to do with wearing VIT or STR.

[Lemuel81]

snip

This guy gets it

[Gardes]

So, you'd rather NOT use your abilities that you have, like you should be, so that a Healer who want to DPS, like they should be, can use the abilities they have that they DO want to use? Does not compute.

If you don't understand why popping two major cool downs at the same time in a long duration fight with multiple rounds of combat is a bad idea, don't tell what tanks should or shouldn't be doing. Hell, if you don't understand why it's a bad idea, I don't want you healing either.

[Khemorex]

This guy gets it

Yeh , but most of the time it dosnt work like that , coz people dont give a damn about the others , and only care for they own dps :P

[Galaticus]

As a tank that uses mostly VIT- I think I cause pulls to take significantly longer than if I went with STR which inadvertently puts more strain on people. I can't confirm this is the case, but I would assume something along these lines. I do like having a large HP pool however and longer fights aren't /exclusively/ bad... to each their own I guess.

[Greven]

Main DRK (with few STR Accessories) and WHM. I have all the other job to 50 from 2.0 (DRG reaching 60, lovin'it).
8/10 times it's the tank fault, the general healer goes with the flow and there are many healers that are lazy and prefer to just heal and even they know if they need to top off a tank or not so no MP are wasted. With 3.0 healing has changed a bit: the heals feel like they heal less, DPS healers have to time it better.. and the trend of full STR tanks. I mean, if you are awesome, overgear, in a static or with trusted player it's okay. I have my nearly full STR set as well and I'll have my melded crafts later on, but otherwise in DF/PF and similar you should go with 90% VIT gear. Cause STR build works only if everything is perfect, from the tank himself first to the healers, to the last DPS. Stop being blind, "get good".
And ask yourself why there are fewer healers in proportion than in 2.0 >.>