Forcing players through MSQ content makes it un fun.

[Ori]

screw it, by this logic let's just skip all CS, all dungeons, make the last trial LV50 and do that because it seems no one gives a moogles ass about the story, dungeons, trials etc post 60 anyway.

Jumping to an extreme? No one here ever said they wanted anything handed to them.

EDIT: In fact all i said was:

There is something in the joy that is taken away because I was forced.
I am very happy I finally played through it. But I would have preferred to under different circumstances.

[Ori]

lol.


Its already stated that wer the main character in the game and all the other people are just there for the ride if a drk is partying with people who have never been to isgard its because their a vet helping rookie adventures. But if a person who hasn't been to isgard sees a drk in their party then their this mysteries swordsman who they know nothing about.

But in the end your logic digresses from the initial point of this post. "It made the game less enjoyable."

You seem to be very angry with me for not having as much fun as you.

[Temjiu]

My argument has all the weight it needs. Do the content. That's it. There is no argument. This is Final Fantasy so story is relevant. Until 5.0 is released the idea of skipping content will never be considered by anyone. Do the content, that's it. If you feel like you're being rushed and wasting your time that's your problems not mine

I don't feel like I'm being rushed. The Op's complaint wasn't that he was feeling rushed (though he did express that feeling about aspects of the main issue later on). His argument was that he was forced to do all of the MSQ to even see the new areas and try out the new stuff. His frustration is 10 hours of meaningless quests to get 2 hours of quality Story. But your right, there isn't an argument here...there's the OP expressing his view and frustration with the design, and there's you being belligerent about it. Other people are contributing to the discussion, you are not.

I respect your opinion that the MSQ is fine as it is. I disagree. I think were done here.

[Temjiu]

"you refuse to listen to his point of view" but like what point of view? That he felt forced to do the msq because he wanted instant gratification of level 30 classes right off the bat? How stupid is that? Wow, Ishgard, and all of the locations and jobs located there, are all locked away because they're heavily religious and xenophobic. It makes so much sense that a brand new bean sprout can just walk in without establishing themselves as an adventurer of value. The story tells you early on that Ishgard left the alliance. Why would you just walk right in like you own the place and pick up level 30 jobs without even playing one of the basic classes to get a handle on combat in this game in the first place? This is a pointless discussion. Anyone who doesn't care about plots and stories is playing the wrong game. if you're upset that SE made it to where you had to pay attention to the work that they put into this(ex. all the pre 3.0 s***), then you're definitely playing the wrong game.

You isolated a singular aspect of the issue and you are missing the global issue. I hope I don't sound belittling with this, but you should read his main post again. So here's ANOTHER Synopsis of the main issue and examples of other games that did it well. I already summarized SwtOR and how they did it there in a previous post if you actually want to read it. Its back there. I'm not going to expand on why the classes are not “Ishgard” exclusive as this post is already too long. But suffice to say it wasn't his main point.

TLDR: FFXIV is NOT some special snowflake because it has a story. It is a great story, don't get me wrong. But there are plenty of good MMOs that have just as great stories and complex worlds. FFXIV is, however, one of the few that force it down your throat.

The OP didn't “just” want the new classes. If you actually read his original post, You would know that is original complaint was being forced to do the whole MSQ to unlock Ishgard. Not just the new jobs. People are getting sidetracked on the new jobs. Let me expand on the concept (the original complaint) a bit here.

When WoW first introduced Burning Crusade, the players weren't forced to do all of the old content first. If you were lvl 50, a Quest appeared at the gate that started the whole train. Would you miss allot of story progression? Sure. But it was your choice. It was still there. You may argue that FFXIV is a story driven game and WoW was not. But I disagree...the Warcraft world had a huge history and storyline IF YOU CARED to involve yourself in it ( I did to an extent). The big difference was that they didn't force it down your throat. They had lead ins in the major cities that gave you just enough background story to not be lost. If you chose to ignore the rest of it...your loss, not theirs. But you had the CHOICE.

In Lord of the Rings Online, there obviously was a strong story element...the whole game is based on one huge story! And placed in a world that is arguably just as detailed, if not more so, then the FFXIV world. but when the Mines of Moria expansion first came out, you weren't required to run through 12 hours of meaningless quests just to see the new areas. They actually had a short intro, available at lvl 45 (5 levels BEFORE the cap), that introduced you to the new areas, and also the new legendary items as well. It was 2 hours of your time tops, and a very fun (and relevant) story as well.

I could have gone back into Angmar and done all the quests there, all the raids, and gotten a ton of background story if I wanted to. Or I could do the intro and get right into the coolness of the Mines of Moria.

Those are just 2 examples of very successful MMO's with strong stories that had effective ways of getting the story to you WITHOUTH locking it behind 12 hours of meaningless drivel for an hour of real important story driven content. Again, I repeat: It's not the STORY, its the extra 12 hours of stupid quests that are REQUIRED for the story.

If you actually look at the “intro” to Isgard in FFXIV, it's a single quest. Thats it. 5 minute cutscene. Everything before that is background story, but they didn't have to force people to do it. They could have just made that story available at lvl 50. Many Story driven MMO's have similar complex stories, but chose to give people the choice. That is all the OP is asking.

[Avin00]

I think what OP is asking for is the story content to be seperated from all other content, honestly I think a lot would no longer do the story content and that would be a shame. OP might be a special case but the vast majority would just fate grind their way to 60and the problem with that would be a lack of general skill and progression in the general populace because players would be able to jump straight into raid level content. Op while you say you are capable of such an action the general skill level of the english speaking servers in general in some cases a .5% clear rate on the hardest content is proof that more tutorial like content is needed and gating areas is a good way of doing that.

[Temjiu]

I decided to post this in a separate post as it's really about discussing how FFXIV could retain its story central elements and still provide a more linear, direct story for those who just want the meat and potatoes, but still provide fleshed out details for those who want the details as well. Funny thing is, they already started that in the new expansion.


And I apologize if I slightly derail your thread Ori...it's really more along the lines of solutions to your main issue. For those that do not want to read my lengthy thread, a SUMMARY is at the bottom.

In a recent Letter from the producer live, the question was asked “Is there anything in particular which players have missed that you would like us to check out?”

The response was that there were plenty of NPC's to talk to to flesh out the story, you just had to engage them and talk to them. And he expressed how players missed out on allot of background filler story because they didn't “just talk” to the NPC's

The funny thing is, they did in HW exactly what people are asking them to do in 2.x for the most part (aside from those who just wish the gating to be less...well...gating). The issue is that with all the filler between the Two (lvl 50 and HW), there is a few hours of real meaningful content, and about 12 hours of filler “run here and get this” quests.

First off, to turn aside the arguments that “all MMO's have those quests” Yes, they do. But the difference is they dont put them in the MSQ and force you to do those quests just to unlock the new content (areas, classes, etc). THAT's the issue. So, the solution is simple. Do exactly what they did in HW. Take those “fluff” quests, and either make them side quests or just make them speech globes that are at NPC's that you can talk to, just like they did in HW.

And I would also like to note to the naysayers, that I'm not talking about the Storyline from 1-50. that is fine...the exp on those quests is now relevant enough that you don't even need to worry about leveling as long as your following the story. That's not the issue. This issue is in the example below:

Here's the example (shortened and real quest names taken out to protect the innocent!). Currently, in 2.x MSQ, at lvl 50, let's say I'm at revenant's toll, and Minfilia gives me an important story quest says there's a horrible event about to occur, and we need to stop it!

BUT, in the meantime, she want's me to go out and talk with Tataru. You go to Tataru, and she says she wants to earn more money for the Scions, and needs your help collecting gear for her to, above all things, Mine with so she can sell the metals for more money. Now, at this point, I can't go stop the horrid elemental from destroying the world UNTIL I help Tataru get here mining Gear. Yeah, OK.

No problem. Great story stuff, fleshes out the details of the Scions, they're devotion to each other and the cause, and all that warm fuzzy stuff. But, It's completely illogical. If I need to save the world, what am I doing running around collecting mining gear that the dozen soliders standing around her could collect!

Aside from the lack of logic there, aside from the obvious point that it's designed to flesh out the background story, the main issue is this: In spite of this being a background quest, It's not in the background. It's directly in the way between me and saving the world. Or, in reality, it's in the way between me and actually moving my story forward.

Now here's the solution: I pulled this idea not just from HW (where they did it in Ishgard) , but from a half dozen other MMO's who have used this design. I go to minifilia, and she says, “We must save the world! Go kill this boss right nao.” OK cutie, im on my way “Oh, on your way out, see if others can use help too, cause your good at that.”

On my way out, I noticed that there's 6 other quests that have magically popped up in the Rising stones. Heading to these quests, I get a bunch of assistance stuff, from helping Tatru to discussing various tactics with the soldiers, to doing a few training fights with the other guys....you know these quests...they were the ones that were all in the way of actually getting the story quests to progress. But in my example world, they are now available, along with MORE side quests....but you don't have to do them. You can just go and save the world, and move your story right along. OR...get a ton of great story and connection to the NPC's if you would like. Key here is CHOICE.

Some may argue that those fillers “are the story”...well I disagree. To a point. They are background story that helps fill out the main story and defines it. And according to SE, they think the same thing...those “fillers” are now the bubbles that pop up on NPC's in Ishgard...they didn't even give them the credit of being side quests!

Sure, there are “side quests” in HW, but the point is that the story in HW is much more direct, much more plot driven then the quests you get from when you first hit 50 to when Isgard becomes unlocked for you. This same design would help out immensely to shorten that “dead space” between 50 and HW for people who really just want the meat of the story, and get to the interesting stuff.

The logic behind it when it was first created isn't bad. It gave people things to do, story to see, and details to unfold, right? Connect you with the NPC's and such, and it kept us from being bored waiting for more content. But the bad design of how they gave us this content is now causing frustration to many, and like many other bad designs, should be rectified when possible.

Now, how does this help people like the OP? Well, for one, they wouldn't feel like they had to run through 15 hours of meaningless content to get to the new areas. It would be a few hours of focused, important content. This doesn't take away the “lock”, but it would drastically ease the frustration of those who had to meet the 'lock'

The second thing they could do with the MSQ that would ease the transition (again, w/o unlocking the lock) is to make the whole bunch of quests that are currently 50 ONLY, and make them available at 45. that way you could do them during the progression to 50, and the actual 50 material would be much less. They could also move all the instance and trail related quests (which sort of have to be 50) to NPC's, just like how many of the HM and EM instances are now. That way the MQS gets you to 50, and you can go directly to Isgard, and all the extra stuff that isn't pertinent to the main story you can get as side quests.

So, to SUMMARIZE:
1. take filler quests and move them to NPC's, and out of the main Story line.
2. ON same note, instances and trails that are in the MSQ post 50 can be move to NPC's as side quests, just like how the current crop of Hard and Extreme modes are.
3. Make the quests that are not focused on lvl 50 instances/trials and make their level requirements 45. adjust the pre-50 MSQ quest requirements to work with this, so that by the time you actually hit 50, the only thing you really have to do is head to Camp Dragonhead and grab the “unlock” quest.

Problem solved.

[umbra11867]

Actually the side quests give pretty good exp. Chances are that if you feel these quests don't give you enough exp then your not going to feel happy about the exp anything else gives.

Why is it such a problem for people to do old stuff before the new stuff? All video games I've seen take work to complete.

Also if there are mmo's that handle this better, then why aren't you busy playing those? Obviously there is a reason for that.

[Ori]

Also if there are mmo's that handle this better, then why aren't you busy playing those? Obviously there is a reason for that.

That is drastically off point. and i am going to pretend you did not say it. Cause you were clearly in a fit of rage. (I am trying to be funny. Please do not feel insulted if my joke fell flat.)

I love this game. It is easily one of the most open and best MMOs I have ever played. And one of the best FF games since FF9. IMHO.

They made a design choice that did not really have to be there. And I had slightly less fun because of this choice.

Had they let me play the game with a little more freedom. I would have done 2.1-2.55 in another manner and had a MUCH more enjoyable time doing it. Simple as that.

[Ori]

I think what OP is asking for is the story content to be seperated from all other content, honestly I think a lot would no longer do the story content and that would be a shame. OP might be a special case but the vast majority would just fate grind their way to 60and the problem with that would be a lack of general skill.

Based on my experience in other MMOs where you can play however you want. I find the players are just as skilled, and bad at times, as any player I have met here.

In WoW I like to dungeon grind to max level and then i make an alt I slowly take through the story.

With all of that said.

It will not change the reason this entire post exists.

I did not have as much fun doing it because of being 'forced'.

[Ori]

And I apologize if I slightly derail your thread Ori...it's really more along the lines of solutions to your main issue. For those that do not want to read my lengthy thread, a SUMMARY is at the bottom.

Dude. No worries. This post was initially me simply stating "I had SLIGHTLY less fun due to this design choice" and it became people thinking I want to re-write the game.

Imagine if I said "I had NO fun due to this design choice." Probably would be a 'cats and dogs living together' situation.