Boring Endgame

[ImDingDing]

Since less than 1% of the EU/NA player base cleared the end game raid before any neff I dont see why they should try harder to make more diffcult content rather than more hunt/gold souce/chocobo/marriage/airship/etc...

[Stanelis]

The same syndrome with people who cried for years they wanted innovation in the MMO genre, and then showed no interest in MMORPGs that tried to innovate.

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

The result of this mundane game design is that it has no replay value or is plain unfun (like PVP, FATES of Hunts), so SE has to come up with ways to compel people to run the same content over and over again (like zodiac weapons grind).

Finally, the number of viewers watching FFXIV heavensward streams on twitch during the release of the expansion has been incredibly low for a new game, which proves that the game can, currently, be considered as being boring (not just the endgame).

[AriaEnia]

Thavnarian bustier set is the endgame.

[Kaaylryn]

Thus it has ever been with any MMO with end game raiding. I started with vanilla WOW and remember the 40 man raids. Still, once it was beat, you still did the weekly grind for gear, seeing the same thing over and over again. This continued through BC and Wrath. It was sometimes more difficult to get 40 or 25 or 10 people together than it was to finish the fights. I quit the game when Cataclysm launched. There was too much homogenization of skills for my taste. Updates or expansions had huge time gaps between releases, so no constant stream of new content.

The main differences in design were rooms and rooms of trash mobs which could wipe the group if not pulled properly. There was also a lot of crowd control usage not found in FFXIV. And then there was the constant preparations for raid nights, a huge time sink, but necessary.

Since you could not do everything on one character, I had multiple characters leveled for crafting food, pots, gems, enchantments, etc. This whole process took a lot of time and effort. Get a new piece of gear and start the process all over again. I am not sure that the modern MMO player would have the patience for this. Hell, people get ticked off when big enough groups aren't pulled to "get it over with".

I think Wildstar tried to up the ante for end game raiding by using some long, difficult attunement process and pretty difficult raid dungeons. I don't think it fared so well. Point is, you never beat an MMO, unlike an RPG. It continues with moments of drought in between updates, where you tread water, find odd jobs to do or quit for a while. I don't foresee any huge changes to end game design, I believe those days are long gone.

[Colt47]

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

A lot of games use a linear progression model on gear and stats even before World of Warcraft, it's just that it wasn't the focus of the game. The psychological effects of the shift from a slow, methodical leveling up and absorption of content to the rapid pacing of today are easy to see.

The reason we are probably seeing a lot of cloning going around is a combination of "me too" and "oh hey look it works", attitude. I'd greatly appreciate it if MMORPG designers brought back the idea of paragon leveling systems and epic loot instead of completely depending on some arbitrary end game currency grind. The original Final Fantasy XI had a good pacing on leveling up, it's just the time between story segments was far too long so people couldn't advance through the main quest scenario fast enough to care about it. The way they probably should have handled the story stuff in FFXI was have it fully completable at level 35, then have 15 levels to sort of enjoy expanding ones class, grind crafting, and do other things. Then when the next expansion hit they could start the next story at level 45-55, etc. That way we no longer need an end game where we all have to meat grind and repeat the same stuff continuously.

People like to think that the older MMOs were more "hardcore" than todays, but the reality is that they just had really bad pacing. If anything they were more casual than what we got now. Heck, it's like the standard frantic American work day got somehow ported into our games when you really look at the kinds of changes that have taken place.

[Dami]

If anything I would have liked more glamours than content. As it is I still have a shit ton of crafter and gatherer jobs to level which is going to probably take a month. Not to mention Savage is coming out so there goes 3hours of my time on static runs. And then I also have a bunch of other jobs to level and get gear for. Maybe also get enough gil to buy a house and get into farming. And then I gotta get my relic weapon glamour for a few jobs that I like. Ugh so many things to do....

[Dyvid]

snip

Pretty much my sentiment. Xpac are suppose to have new, innovated idea to help reinvigorate the player base and maybe attract new players. Instead we have the same things we did in 2.0. Let's be honest now, what did 3.0 bring that 2.0 didn't have? Larger zones and flying mounts to traverse them. Did this change or enhance the way we play from day to day? Not really in my opinion. People still huddle up in Reverents Toll, oh sorry I mean Idyllshire, hanging around waiting for DF... Hunts are well, hunts which isn't a compliment. FATEs are worse than 2.0 due to risk vs reward.

FFXIV has it's player base now. It's safe to cater to them and try new ideas. You don't have to keep dumbing down content for new players because they have levels 1-50 to teach them.

[Zabuza]

Almost every MMO which have been released since wow release have been dumbed down wow clones (FFXIV ARR included). Therefore I don't really see which games you re referring to when talking about games which tried to innovate.

Also players do not necessarily want innovation, but good RPG and decent raiding content.

There are countless way to implement such content, such as :

- Non instanced or instanced dungeons, which involve exploration and puzzle solving.
- Nonlinear raids, which involve exploration, with more than one boss per floor.

The problem with FFXIV is that every piece of content released in the game is too mundane on a game design standpoint (not talking about graphics), as if there were no passion from the people designing the content. It is hard to believe FFXIV has been designed by the same company which released FFX, FFXI and FFXII (3 amazing games on a game design standpoint).

The result of this mundane game design is that it has no replay value or is plain unfun (like PVP, FATES of Hunts), so SE has to come up with ways to compel people to run the same content over and over again (like zodiac weapons grind).

Finally, the number of viewers watching FFXIV heavensward streams on twitch during the release of the expansion has been incredibly low for a new game, which proves that the game can, currently, be considered as being boring (not just the endgame).

So in otherwords, you don't have an idea for innovation. The bolded sounds like you want the PvE content to be exactly like WoW's. WoW has the same exact issue of people complaining when they feel they've gone through the content btw. They just went through a year long content drought and are about to go through another. People are complaining there much worse than here.

As for your stream comment, I watched Towelliee play FFXIV on stream and people were enjoying it. He even had 3000+ players watching it when he was being paid to play it. The story is enjoyable to watch. I was bored watching him play WoW doing the same PvE content and GARRISONS/SHIPYARDS over and over. This is the nature of PvE content, you learn how it works and then when you figure it out, it's now boring. Our age of social media is another reason PvE content is blown through and we have this issue. In an age where people are EXPECTED to watch videos, people know how the fight works before they even do it for the first time, thus clearing it faster. There is no process of wiping to figure out the mechanics, unless you're among the world firsts going through the content. Some games aren't as fun to watch as others as well. WoW's 1.5 second GCD would by default make the combat more fun to watch than Heavensward's 2.5 second GCD. Doesn't mean it's not as fun to play.

Pretty much my sentiment. Xpac are suppose to have new, innovated idea to help reinvigorate the player base and maybe attract new players. Instead we have the same things we did in 2.0. Let's be honest now, what did 3.0 bring that 2.0 didn't have? Larger zones and flying mounts to traverse them. Did this change or enhance the way we play from day to day? Not really in my opinion. People still huddle up in Reverents Toll, oh sorry I mean Idyllshire, hanging around waiting for DF... Hunts are well, hunts which isn't a compliment. FATEs are worse than 2.0 due to risk vs reward.

FFXIV has it's player base now. It's safe to cater to them and try new ideas. You don't have to keep dumbing down content for new players because they have levels 1-50 to teach them.

I'm still waiting to hear your amazing innovative ideas.

People like to think that the older MMOs were more "hardcore" than todays, but the reality is that they just had really bad pacing. If anything they were more casual than what we got now. Heck, it's like the standard frantic American work day got somehow ported into our games when you really look at the kinds of changes that have taken place.

Try beating CoP in FFXI pre-nerf and then tell me that. That was STORY content btw. Can you imagine the outrage on these forums if the story was that difficult in THIS game? Imagine if The Chrysalis Trial was as difficult as the Proto-Ultima fight in CoP pre nerf. Imagine if Steps of Faith was as difficult as pre-nerf Snoll. The difficulty of CoP's fights made pre-nerf Steps of Faith look like a joke in comparison. Fight Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden with a raid group and tell me that.

[Stanelis]

So in otherwords, you don't have an idea for innovation. The bolded sounds like you want the PvE content to be exactly like WoW's. WoW has the same exact issue of people complaining when they feel they've gone through the content btw. They just went through a year long content drought and are able to go through another. People are complaining there much worse than here.

Mate I'm no game designer at SE, it is not my job to provide new ideas. However I'm a tabletop RPG player and a long time MMORPG player. Also, the content of wow has been very linear since burning crusade (and I know quite well what I'm talking about).

Also I'm not complaining that there isn't enough content on FFXIV, but rather that it is mundane and lacks insight.

As for your stream comment, I watched Towelliee play FFXIV on stream and people were enjoying it. He even had 3000+ players watching it when he was being paid to play it. The story is enjoyable to watch. I was bored watching him play WoW doing the same PvE content and GARRISONS/SHIPYARDS over and over. This is the nature of PvE content, you learn how it works and then when you figure it out, it's now boring. Our age of social media is another reason PvE content is blown through and we have this issue. In an age where people are EXPECTED to watch videos, people know how the fight works before they even do it for the first time, thus clearing it faster. There is no process of wiping to figure out the mechanics, unless you're among the world firsts going through the content. Some games aren't as fun to watch as others as well. WoW's 1.5 second GCD would by default make the combat more fun to watch than Heavensward's 2.5 second GCD. Doesn't mean it's not as fun to play.

The fact that there are more players watching wow (or any other game) than FFXIV has little to do with GCD ... (what makes the interest of a MMO isn't how fast you push on buttons) Mundane and boring summarize quite well the situation on FFXIV.

[Teleste]

What would you prefer to see different?