Paladin Suggestions

[Ceodore]

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Actually, you recover 60 TP every 3 seconds while in combat. Now, Flash does no damage, Shield Swipe does. I'll take a single target damaging enmity increase for less TP recovery over no damage, MP consuming enmity increase on a single target fight any day. We aren't having TP issues with trash where AOE enmity is more helpful. We are having TP issues on bosses, where there is mostly one target. Being able to continue to damage while recovering even a slight amount of TP is better than doing absolutely no damage and recovering a full GCD, especially since Blocking comes quite often in these fights, and making use of the proc is better than just letting it fall away. Further, making it oGCD would mean that you would be consuming more TP by using it instead of recovering it. Swipe is, in fact, excellent TP management because it not only uses less TP than what you recover from using it, it also triggers a global, allowing you to recover some TP.

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Okay, first, yes, Deliverance effect the enmity on OP, but you still result in less enmity than if used with Defiance, and Warriors can not use both at the same time like Dark Knights can do with Grit and Dark Side. I WILL admit to the other classes having better AOE enmity, but so long as I can keep hate off of DPS and healers, I have no issues with this. I can still perform my role, even if it is at a slight disadvantage as opposed to other tanks. We still have better damage mitigation than the other two classes, especially with Defiance having its nerf to the healing from the emergency heals (note, Defiance no longer increases healing on heals that are instant cast, this has been confirmed)

[Faytte]

Snip

Everything ive seen save for posts from 2012 indicate 50 per 3 (since 60 per 3 would mean it would take a very very long time to go out of tp given the average combo is 63 tp (70/60/60), gcds are 2.5 and people have latency/in and out of combat etc). Either way, the point stands you are only generating 13 tp per use of shield swipe compared to your average combo. A flash eats of a full gcd, and gives you a full gcd worth of regen of tp. That tp is more efficiently used in a combo instead of swipe. If TP management is an issue, using swipe is less optimal than flash, and you will do more damage per TP with goring blade or the royal combo (average damage per tp).

It feels nifty to slap a button cause it lights up, but swipe is kind of a trap. If you have tp issues, use flash. If you dont have tp issues, use other abilities.

Second part is the crux of the issue. If you are in a bleeding edge progression guild, the only way you are holding threat off war ot's and good dps is staying in shield the entire fight and spamming rage --> rage--> goring. Other tanks can drop out of tank stances (my war co tank most of ravannah ex in deliverence)--that is because all of their damage applications effect their emnity increases.


We have the issue of:
1) Sword Oath doesnt have its damage effect by increased emnity
2) Flash deals no potency to be magnified
3) Our threat combo does the least damage out of any aggro combo, which coupled with naturally low ways to magnify our damage (darks do this largely by OGDS, about 2000 potency a minute oGCD vs our 1100, or via straight modifiers in the case of wars (maim/zerk/lulul all dat damage).

[OnizukaBR]

New animation for flash and give it 10 potency xD, man it is really boring spamming flash doing 0 damage and have a lame animation. War and Drk are so much cooler tanking packs of mobs

[Ceodore]

New animation for flash and give it 10 potency xD, man it is really boring spamming flash doing 0 damage and have a lame animation. War and Drk are so much cooler tanking packs of mobs

What's funny, is that Flash is a very unique skill that actually has more applications than people give it credit for. It actually even goes through immunities to cause enmity. For instance, in Tam-Tara, on the final boss, when he goes invuln and is tethered to the imps, you can actually flash and still generate enmity. With a potency, this feature would actually disappear. Or on World of Darkness, you can actually Flash Could of Darkness during her add phase and continue to generate enmity on her. With a potency, this would also disappear. Skills with potency modifiers are notorious for requiring the damage to actually hit for the enmity to actually register. This is why skills like Overpower and Unleash don't actually generate any enmity during these phases.

[Faytte]

What's funny, is that Flash is a very unique skill that actually has more applications than people give it credit for. It actually even goes through immunities to cause enmity. For instance, in Tam-Tara, on the final boss, when he goes invuln and is tethered to the imps, you can actually flash and still generate enmity. With a potency, this feature would actually disappear. Or on World of Darkness, you can actually Flash Could of Darkness during her add phase and continue to generate enmity on her. With a potency, this would also disappear. Skills with potency modifiers are notorious for requiring the damage to actually hit for the enmity to actually register. This is why skills like Overpower and Unleash don't actually generate any enmity during these phases.

There are fringe cases where Flash has a nice effect.
Then there are the majority of situations you would rather have it behave differently.
When asking for quality of life changes, I would gladly give up the fringe for the majority, given its at the core of our aoe threat management. This isnt tempered will--flash is meant to compare against unleash, overpower and its clearly (outside fringe situations) the weakest of the lot. Which, if Paladins do the least damage (and they do--a bit on single target and laughable on aoe) then I still want their 'threat' to be at level, but at this time its not scaling the same way.

Maim effects aoe threat. Dark Side effects aoe threat.
Flash gains no benefits from FoF.
Deliverance and Dark Side both amplify the threat of increased emnity attacks.
Sword Oath does nothing--the added potency is not effected.

There are issues with Paladins. It's not 2.0 War--no one is saying that. It needs some small tweaks, some ability updates, somethings -nudged-.

[pouncing]

So i do not have a problem with you wanting to increase PLD's threat generation while MT'ing in fact I welcome it coming from a WAR's perspective, however I think you're going about it the wrong way. Here are my thoughts coming from the other side of the tank equation:

-If you increased PLD's damage to within say 50-100 DPS of WAR then why would you bring a WAR when PLD has superior mitigation and similar DPS? Same would go for DRK
-If you increased PLD's aoe threat by giving them more aoe damage(this isnt really an issue) there would be nothing unique about the other 2 tanks aoe's
-If you allowed PLD to switch stances oGCD then you would lose one of the draws of WAR and half of DRK(Darkside)\

So here are my solutions:
-Do not increase PLD's DPS. Increase the threat modifier that either Shield Oath or that of RoH applies. If they give 300% enmity up it to 350% so that they can hold off of your OT. This should give PLD some breathing room to use GB and RA more frequently while also recognizing that the strength de-buff is important. I would imagine start of the fight going: RoH -> RoH -> Goring -> RoH -> Goring/RA until RoH debuff falls off then RoH and this would hold enmity for a while then go back do a few RoH's continue.
-Do not give flash a damage component, but instead allow flash to proc CoS off CD say 2 times ever 10 seconds. so you could potentially CoS -> Flash -> CoS -> Flash -> CoS assuming it procs that way
-I dont find PLD's stances to much of an issue considering PLD is essentially THE MT. However i would do this remove the MP or decrease it. PLD seems to have quite the MP sink now that clemency is somewhat useful.
- Utility I completly agree with this. either that or make clemency require a finite amount of damage to interrupt say 5000 damage
-Blind i think it should effect but maybe have either reduced duration or reduced effectiveness to raid bosses.

TL/DR the solution is not to increase the damage so PLD can once again take WAR's spot, but to increase its threat generation passively so it can use its DPS combos more often while MTing

Again this is only from the side of someone who only played PLD through 2.55, but hasnt taken it past 50 yet

[Faytte]

Snip

Basically this. The suggestions i made (minus maybe swipe ogcd) dont effect damage so much--I'm more concerned with incrementing our threat up so we are free to use other combos and not be married to halone.

Also I would say, this extra mitigation we earn due to our low damage becomes largely invalidated in a magic damage paradigm. If busters continue to be magic damage in alexander, then we pay a cost for something we are not using (Darks still do great damage, wars as well regardless of the damage source).

[Faytte]

I think bullet points would be

-make blind useful and work
-clemency as a gcd instead of a spell. Skill speed helps it, not interrupted, but still limited by mana and takes up the same time block (2.5 vs 3)
-increase our threat in oath (overall) and oath (via extra enmity powers)

[rawker]

Nothing much has changed on PLD level 50 onwards. If there's anything i'd suggest, continue to give us more swords that swing fast. The heart of our DPS isn't done with burst damage like double fell cleaves but with taking advatage of sword oath's additional 50 pot. It lasts for as long as we like, with no mp drain like darkside. We don't thrive with managing stacks like war. Flash, yes i agree with the differentiation between oaths. Sheltron, i might ask for an increase in mp return seeing that it's not always up or blocking everything. As for Clemency, future expacs might address the interruptible natures of it. I just don't see it as that broken but needs getting used to.

[Khalithar]

Responses to your ideas OP:

1.I have an alternative to Rage of Halone, give the enmity bonus and strength down bonus to Royal Authority (leave RA damage as is) and let us have it replace Rage of Halone altogether at 60 in the same way you'd take Fire off your bar when you learn Fire II. (If you do low level content, you can always swap the abilities on your bar).

2. I've never had issues with aoe threat, flash is definitely not the most exciting way to AoE but my opener for AoE: Flash -> Circle while GCD is going -> Flash again usually works fine and I just throw in the occasional flash if I need to. I do wish that the best way for aoe threat wasn't flash spam to riot blade combo with the occasional circle thrown in. Unleash/Overpower are way more satisfying to use imo.

3. Clemency: I use this skill a lot in A4 while keeping up my MP with Riot Blade in the last phase (I usually end up OTing this fight) until it's my turn to eat Perpetual Ray. I agree on changing it. I'm not sure about making it instant cast, tbh I'd rather see it have the 2.5 sec GCD and halve the MP cost while leaving it's heal intact. It's highly situational and could use some love.

Veil: I really think the button itself should trigger the shield and instead of proximity it should just hit our whole party automatically.

4. Sword Oath is pretty boring compared to the other DPS stances, I think it could use a buff of some kind not necessarily a +damage%, but maybe reduce tp costs? Just a thought.

5. No real comment about this one outside of Blind seems pretty useless of the time. Maybe add a secondary effect? Maybe a debuff that reduces/negates an enemies chance to crit?