Paladin Suggestions

[repoe]

Meh ill pop DV on ravana. Since an aoe cure is going out anyways to top ppl off. Its not a bad ability, but not great. Situational

[Ceodore]

@Ceodore

If you play PLD at an average lvl then yes its probably fine.

PLDs flaws are apparent when you start playing with top end DPS, healers and tanks.

Of course PLDs stance dance while MTing, why wouldn't we? We have a plethora of defensive CDs we can rotate while in sword oath. WARs and DRKs can sit in their offensive stance doing maximum DPS while maintaining hate. PLDs are stuck with Halone spam to keep hate off the OT and DPS. (SwO)

Our AoE DPS is nil. Yes, flash can hold hate off DPS and Healers, but on turns like A2, why even bring a PLD?

Turns like A1 our WAR can MT and push close to 900 dps, my PLD is stuck in the 700 range. That's a problem in job design. Turns like A4 PLD has zero defensive advantage but are a huge DPS loss which makes the turn harder. PLDs are supposed to be more defensive but then they make encounters where none of our advantages work.

Sheltron - good design, but now PLD is king of physical tank busters (if they add any)
Clemency - garbage, too slow, too much MP, if you are finding a use for this move (besides solo use) then you need better healers
Divine Veil - better then most people give it credit but not needed
Goring blade - awesome, needs a hate bonus
Royal - awesome, needs a hate bonus

I've also ran all these turns. In A4, it's actually better if the PLD OTs, since they will get thrown into the other room with the PHYSICAL damaging add. Our CDs are much more appropriate for this than MTing the boss. Also, a difference in DPS have been stated as being intentional by SE between Paladin and the other tanks. This was on purpose by design. We also have less AOE damage, yes, but that's also why there are heavy hitting single target enemies in the A2 fight as well which are better tanked by a Paladin who can put out still decent single target damage while everyone AOEs down the big group of Jagd Dolls being handled by the tank who can actually pull larger numbers on so many targets. Just because a tank doesn't perform every task as well as every other tank doesn't mean they need to, it means you utilize them to their fullest potential on what they CAN perform well on. For instance, on A2, when I have the single big spider enemy, I can then time my Clemency better to also heal the other tank who is taking a load to the face from several enemies at once. Even with two healers who can handle the damage, it also helps relieve them some so they can actually heal me as well or a dps who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or to just make their job a little easier. Just because I do help them doesn't make them bad, it just means that much more of a safety cushion for finishing the fight.

Who knows, perhaps there will be tank crunches soon in maybe Alexander Savage. No one is sure, because no one actually knows. So I would calm down and "look forward to it"

[Copenhagen]

Rage of Halone is 260 potency, not 240.

[Faytte]

Wrote it at work and was going off the top of my head. 260! Yep!

To which, I dont think rage of halone needs so much of a buff, but Savage Blade does since its shared in both rotations. Sword Oaths damage should also gain a hate bonus while using hate moves (both darks and warrior get this with their always on damage bonuses when they drop tank stance, allowing them to tank while in offensive stance. Paladin can't really do this to any degree.


Clemency being a GCD (non spell) would be great. Shield Swipe being an oGCD would be a great change.

And the comparison to Divine Veil and Stone Shield is a bit strange, given one has 150 second cooldown and the other has none? Of course a 2.5 minute cd is better than an ability you can use at will? Sentinel is better than Rampart for the same reason ^_^

And per what was said, Yes Paladins wont know any issues unless you are in a progress guild and are tanking off top end dps/OT's that are pushing the limit. Keeping hate off a ot warriors that is throwing out a BB every 3 rotations is kind of eye opening----you become a slave to rage of halone at that point--nothing as satisfying as getting 2 new combos and realizing you are a slave to 2.0's 1-2-3 combo with a goring after ever few.

[Ceodore]

Shield Swipe being an oGCD would be a great change.

Why do people never see the issue with this when it comes to TP management? It baffles me every time.

[OnizukaBR]

New animation for flash and give it 10 potency xD, man it is really boring spamming flash doing 0 damage and have a lame animation. War and Drk are so much cooler tanking packs of mobs

[Ceodore]

New animation for flash and give it 10 potency xD, man it is really boring spamming flash doing 0 damage and have a lame animation. War and Drk are so much cooler tanking packs of mobs

What's funny, is that Flash is a very unique skill that actually has more applications than people give it credit for. It actually even goes through immunities to cause enmity. For instance, in Tam-Tara, on the final boss, when he goes invuln and is tethered to the imps, you can actually flash and still generate enmity. With a potency, this feature would actually disappear. Or on World of Darkness, you can actually Flash Could of Darkness during her add phase and continue to generate enmity on her. With a potency, this would also disappear. Skills with potency modifiers are notorious for requiring the damage to actually hit for the enmity to actually register. This is why skills like Overpower and Unleash don't actually generate any enmity during these phases.

[Faytte]

Why do people never see the issue with this when it comes to TP management? It baffles me every time.

13 tp per shield is not really tp management. You are better off just throwing out a flash, getting the full tp of a gcd and throwing that tp into a goring blade combo? The average damage / average tp cost is not in shield swipes favor. The only time swipe is better is if you want get extra hate in the middle of a dps combo and think spending the gcd on it is somehow worth while. You regen 50 tp over 3 seconds. A gcd is 2.5--add some lag for 3, shield swipe costs 40 vs 63 (average of other combos). You gain back a MASSIVE 13 every time you swipe. Swipe 10 times for 130 tp over a fight, or just flash three times for 150 that you can put into much more efficient uses?

Swipe being secret TP management is really laughable.

[Faytte]

What's funny, is that Flash is a very unique skill that actually has more applications than people give it credit for. It actually even goes through immunities to cause enmity. For instance, in Tam-Tara, on the final boss, when he goes invuln and is tethered to the imps, you can actually flash and still generate enmity. With a potency, this feature would actually disappear. Or on World of Darkness, you can actually Flash Could of Darkness during her add phase and continue to generate enmity on her. With a potency, this would also disappear. Skills with potency modifiers are notorious for requiring the damage to actually hit for the enmity to actually register. This is why skills like Overpower and Unleash don't actually generate any enmity during these phases.

There are fringe cases where Flash has a nice effect.
Then there are the majority of situations you would rather have it behave differently.
When asking for quality of life changes, I would gladly give up the fringe for the majority, given its at the core of our aoe threat management. This isnt tempered will--flash is meant to compare against unleash, overpower and its clearly (outside fringe situations) the weakest of the lot. Which, if Paladins do the least damage (and they do--a bit on single target and laughable on aoe) then I still want their 'threat' to be at level, but at this time its not scaling the same way.

Maim effects aoe threat. Dark Side effects aoe threat.
Flash gains no benefits from FoF.
Deliverance and Dark Side both amplify the threat of increased emnity attacks.
Sword Oath does nothing--the added potency is not effected.

There are issues with Paladins. It's not 2.0 War--no one is saying that. It needs some small tweaks, some ability updates, somethings -nudged-.

[Ceodore]

-Snipped for size management-

Actually, you recover 60 TP every 3 seconds while in combat. Now, Flash does no damage, Shield Swipe does. I'll take a single target damaging enmity increase for less TP recovery over no damage, MP consuming enmity increase on a single target fight any day. We aren't having TP issues with trash where AOE enmity is more helpful. We are having TP issues on bosses, where there is mostly one target. Being able to continue to damage while recovering even a slight amount of TP is better than doing absolutely no damage and recovering a full GCD, especially since Blocking comes quite often in these fights, and making use of the proc is better than just letting it fall away. Further, making it oGCD would mean that you would be consuming more TP by using it instead of recovering it. Swipe is, in fact, excellent TP management because it not only uses less TP than what you recover from using it, it also triggers a global, allowing you to recover some TP.

-Snipped for size management-

Okay, first, yes, Deliverance effect the enmity on OP, but you still result in less enmity than if used with Defiance, and Warriors can not use both at the same time like Dark Knights can do with Grit and Dark Side. I WILL admit to the other classes having better AOE enmity, but so long as I can keep hate off of DPS and healers, I have no issues with this. I can still perform my role, even if it is at a slight disadvantage as opposed to other tanks. We still have better damage mitigation than the other two classes, especially with Defiance having its nerf to the healing from the emergency heals (note, Defiance no longer increases healing on heals that are instant cast, this has been confirmed)