Paladin Suggestions

[Ceodore]

@Ceodore

If you play PLD at an average lvl then yes its probably fine.

PLDs flaws are apparent when you start playing with top end DPS, healers and tanks.

Of course PLDs stance dance while MTing, why wouldn't we? We have a plethora of defensive CDs we can rotate while in sword oath. WARs and DRKs can sit in their offensive stance doing maximum DPS while maintaining hate. PLDs are stuck with Halone spam to keep hate off the OT and DPS. (SwO)

Our AoE DPS is nil. Yes, flash can hold hate off DPS and Healers, but on turns like A2, why even bring a PLD?

Turns like A1 our WAR can MT and push close to 900 dps, my PLD is stuck in the 700 range. That's a problem in job design. Turns like A4 PLD has zero defensive advantage but are a huge DPS loss which makes the turn harder. PLDs are supposed to be more defensive but then they make encounters where none of our advantages work.

Sheltron - good design, but now PLD is king of physical tank busters (if they add any)
Clemency - garbage, too slow, too much MP, if you are finding a use for this move (besides solo use) then you need better healers
Divine Veil - better then most people give it credit but not needed
Goring blade - awesome, needs a hate bonus
Royal - awesome, needs a hate bonus

I've also ran all these turns. In A4, it's actually better if the PLD OTs, since they will get thrown into the other room with the PHYSICAL damaging add. Our CDs are much more appropriate for this than MTing the boss. Also, a difference in DPS have been stated as being intentional by SE between Paladin and the other tanks. This was on purpose by design. We also have less AOE damage, yes, but that's also why there are heavy hitting single target enemies in the A2 fight as well which are better tanked by a Paladin who can put out still decent single target damage while everyone AOEs down the big group of Jagd Dolls being handled by the tank who can actually pull larger numbers on so many targets. Just because a tank doesn't perform every task as well as every other tank doesn't mean they need to, it means you utilize them to their fullest potential on what they CAN perform well on. For instance, on A2, when I have the single big spider enemy, I can then time my Clemency better to also heal the other tank who is taking a load to the face from several enemies at once. Even with two healers who can handle the damage, it also helps relieve them some so they can actually heal me as well or a dps who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or to just make their job a little easier. Just because I do help them doesn't make them bad, it just means that much more of a safety cushion for finishing the fight.

Who knows, perhaps there will be tank crunches soon in maybe Alexander Savage. No one is sure, because no one actually knows. So I would calm down and "look forward to it"

[SirTaint]

heavy hitting single target enemies in the A2 fight as well which are better tanked by a Paladin "

A2 is terrible for PLD. Sure we have the best mitigation set for that turn but killing the hordes faster mitigates more damage then our JAs can.

WARs and DRKs are bursting in the 1500 DPS range during that fight, PLD stays in the 700dps range. (SwOing the entire fight) If you ShO at all its even worse.

The add in A4 again is best handled by a PLD, but that is 10 (x2-3) seconds of the entire ~5:30 fight.

[Faytte]

A2 is terrible for PLD. Sure we have the best mitigation set for that turn but killing the hordes faster mitigates more damage then our JAs can.

WARs and DRKs are bursting in the 1500 DPS range during that fight, PLD stays in the 700dps range. (SwOing the entire fight) If you ShO at all its even worse.

The add in A4 again is best handled by a PLD, but that is 10 (x2-3) seconds of the entire ~5:30 fight.

This. People ignore that more dps to a degree, shortens a fight and can reduce the need to pop cds and strain healer mana. A paladin taking 15% less damage through a phase would certainly not be worth them contributing 30% less damage (this are absolutely arbitrary numbers). The times this is important is when said damage and that 15% can be the difference between life or death, which to this time, is not seen in Alexander. If things remain as is, than many of the mechanics I would look to a paladin to better mitigate are magic damage, with the seeming exception of A3.

Effectively, the situations in which a Paladin must excel are now somewhat limited to:
1) Single target fight
2) Physical fight

If both situations do not come up, then what you have 'paid' for with your lowered dps compared to other tanks simply does not come into play. And while you cannot participate in aoe contributions meaningfully, it is not as if those other tanks cannot perform valiantly at single target/physical (not as good certainly--but the difference is not as massive as Paladins pathetic threat, absent aoe damage, or single target damage/burst).

[OmniKLD]

It sounds like you want pld to be the best at something(mitigation) while being just a tad worse than the other tanks at everything else. I believe pld is fine your suggestions flow around pld takin a bit from drk. Especially the flash doing dmg bit

[Faytte]

It sounds like you want pld to be the best at something(mitigation) while being just a tad worse than the other tanks at everything else. I believe pld is fine your suggestions flow around pld takin a bit from drk. Especially the flash doing dmg bit

I have each of the tanks at 60 and have been doing the content (current, no savage, but rav ex and all of alex) as each of the three which is where im basing the ideas of. I do -not- think Paladins should compete with darks or wars on damage, especially aoe. What I'm saying is that they are so far behind though (not even registering) that they could use something. As an OT (not tanking) having some aoe damage (ergo the flash idea) seemed like a hook. A way to maintain circle of scorn better when multi tanking is really more the crux of the aoe item.


To which--the main contention points of the post are

single target threat (not so much damage, thats largely secondary for me. This comes up if you play with dps that are parsing for 1K plus single target in rav and a4 (vs dummies:P)
aoe threat (not so much damage, thats largely secondary for me. Again, an issue when you are playing against people pushing themselves to the max. No issue in DF groups XD)
and utility powers.

[repoe]

Meh ill pop DV on ravana. Since an aoe cure is going out anyways to top ppl off. Its not a bad ability, but not great. Situational

[Copenhagen]

Rage of Halone is 260 potency, not 240.

[Faytte]

Wrote it at work and was going off the top of my head. 260! Yep!

To which, I dont think rage of halone needs so much of a buff, but Savage Blade does since its shared in both rotations. Sword Oaths damage should also gain a hate bonus while using hate moves (both darks and warrior get this with their always on damage bonuses when they drop tank stance, allowing them to tank while in offensive stance. Paladin can't really do this to any degree.


Clemency being a GCD (non spell) would be great. Shield Swipe being an oGCD would be a great change.

And the comparison to Divine Veil and Stone Shield is a bit strange, given one has 150 second cooldown and the other has none? Of course a 2.5 minute cd is better than an ability you can use at will? Sentinel is better than Rampart for the same reason ^_^

And per what was said, Yes Paladins wont know any issues unless you are in a progress guild and are tanking off top end dps/OT's that are pushing the limit. Keeping hate off a ot warriors that is throwing out a BB every 3 rotations is kind of eye opening----you become a slave to rage of halone at that point--nothing as satisfying as getting 2 new combos and realizing you are a slave to 2.0's 1-2-3 combo with a goring after ever few.

[Ceodore]

Shield Swipe being an oGCD would be a great change.

Why do people never see the issue with this when it comes to TP management? It baffles me every time.

[Faytte]

Why do people never see the issue with this when it comes to TP management? It baffles me every time.

13 tp per shield is not really tp management. You are better off just throwing out a flash, getting the full tp of a gcd and throwing that tp into a goring blade combo? The average damage / average tp cost is not in shield swipes favor. The only time swipe is better is if you want get extra hate in the middle of a dps combo and think spending the gcd on it is somehow worth while. You regen 50 tp over 3 seconds. A gcd is 2.5--add some lag for 3, shield swipe costs 40 vs 63 (average of other combos). You gain back a MASSIVE 13 every time you swipe. Swipe 10 times for 130 tp over a fight, or just flash three times for 150 that you can put into much more efficient uses?

Swipe being secret TP management is really laughable.