SCH vs AST?

[Rajeme]

How about we move to the other topics cause this matter has been discussed again and again and again and now I remembered every single point you guys made already...

And maybe refrain from making such topics before doing some research first.

[Waterdeep]

I have both AST and SCH and cleared all content so far with my static using both jobs. AST is fine, but SCH makes things a lot smoother. Just looking at the stats makes me sad. SCH heals 40% more than the AST (using Diurnal Sect, mind you) and those 40% are all comming from the pet, Lustrate and Indomability i.E. for free. Heck, looking at the numbers, if I constantly keep the Selene buff up it does basically the same than the AST cards, unless I have a really good draw. Not to mention the loss of E4E and Virus really hurt. Add the awesome SCH dps and mana management and it really feels like gimping my friends when I want to play around with cards. Kinda ironic seeing it is supposed to be a support kinda healer.

But once again: You can do all content with every healer combination.

[SovereignAegis]

I have both AST and SCH and cleared all content so far with my static using both jobs. AST is fine, but SCH makes things a lot smoother. Just looking at the stats makes me sad. SCH heals 40% more than the AST (using Diurnal Sect, mind you) and those 40% are all comming from the pet, Lustrate and Indomability i.E. for free. Heck, looking at the numbers, if I constantly keep the Selene buff up it does basically the same than the AST cards, unless I have a really good draw. Not to mention the loss of E4E and Virus really hurt. Add the awesome SCH dps and mana management and it really feels like gimping my friends when I want to play around with cards. Kinda ironic seeing it is supposed to be a support kinda healer.

But once again: You can do all content with every healer combination.

I agree that AST needs buffs, especially in their cards... however a Scholar doesn't have any HoT outside of their pets/Eos. And their direct heal potencies are outright lower than AST. SCH pays half their healing potency in return to make that half they lost into a shield. We do not have consistent access to a cure2-equivalent ability at the same time, nor a media (1) ability equivalent. We traded those abilities for succor (150 healing potency) and aldoquim (300 heal potency). An AST will always have more access to direct healing than a scholar ever will just based upon that.

Also... Lustrate and indominability each cost an aetherflow stack which only 3 can be held every 60 seconds. They are not free and I am starting to become pissy whenever I read it is free. No, they are not free, they are on a separate currency than MP and bound to it. Blow 3 aetherflows on 3 600 potency (same as cure 2) abilities and then you lose access to indominability, 10% damage migation dome, bane and energy drain. You simply do not get these abilities. It is a tether to the abilities restricting their use as much as it is "free". You choose 3, any 3, and once you choose them you're done.

That does not equal free. It is a separate currency that needs to be managed wisely or you face a wipe.

[Seryl199]

I agree that AST needs buffs, especially in their cards... however a Scholar doesn't have any HoT outside of their pets/Eos. And their direct heal potencies are outright lower than AST. SCH pays half their healing potency in return to make that half they lost into a shield. We do not have consistent access to a cure2-equivalent ability at the same time, nor a media (1) ability equivalent. We traded those abilities for succor (150 healing potency) and aldoquim (300 heal potency). An AST will always have more access to direct healing than a scholar ever will just based upon that.

Also... Lustrate and indominability each cost an aetherflow stack which only 3 can be held every 60 seconds. They are not free and I am starting to become pissy whenever I read it is free. No, they are not free, they are on a separate currency than MP and bound to it. Blow 3 aetherflows on 3 600 potency (same as cure 2) abilities and then you lose access to indominability, 10% damage migation dome, bane and energy drain. You simply do not get these abilities. It is a tether to the abilities restricting their use as much as it is "free". You choose 3, any 3, and once you choose them you're done.

That does not equal free. It is a separate currency that needs to be managed wisely or you face a wipe.

You make a good point, and it's an important distinction. SCH's need to choose how to spend their resources just as smartly as AST. Adloquium and Succor are not spammable abilities, not only because of Galvanize, but their significantly higher MP cost. Benefic II, for example, is nearly 3/4 the cost of Adlo, with a higher potency. Smartly injecting Aetherflow abilities to minimize casted heals is what allows SCH their extended MP reach, not simply the access to 3 lustrates per minute.

AST does indeed have spammable abilities like Benefic II and Helios, but must budget their MP wisely to avoid running dry. We all need to be mindful of our resources, if you tap yourself out just dealing with the mundane in battle, you'll be caught off guard when someone makes a mistake, turning what could be a salvageable mistake into a costly res.

[winsock]

I hate to be that guy but there are multi pages threads right below you discussion this topic. The bottom line is AST isn't as reliable as the other two are because of less emergency heals and oh-shit that is happening buttons. But really to get a full understanding please read those threads.

Lol don't worry about being that guy. If it not "use search" its "don't necro" or "don't derail"

Question though, how does it have less 'oh-shit' stuff than SCH?
AB is instant on gcd
ED is instant
Benefic II is a proc for instant
Light speed causes several things to be instant

I guess where im coming from is AST definitely doesnt throw out WHM heals, but SCH doesnt either and is still considered good. SCH has lustrate saves, but AST has access to more AoE than SCH and its saves are more accessible

[Tashim]

Lol don't worry about being that guy. If it not "use search" its "don't necro" or "don't derail"

Question though, how does it have less 'oh-shit' stuff than SCH?
AB is instant on gcd
ED is instant
Benefic II is a proc for instant
Light speed causes several things to be instant

I guess where im coming from is AST definitely doesnt throw out WHM heals, but SCH doesnt either and is still considered good. SCH has lustrate saves, but AST has access to more AoE than SCH and its saves are more accessible

As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.
SCH instant heals don't lower healing potency by 25%
Sacred Soil, can be used twice a minute, allows scholar to keep casting and moving. Larger radius than Collective Unconscious too
Shadow Flare (aoe slow)
Fey Illumination: 20% healing buff
Fey Convalescence: 20% magic resistance
Dissipate: 20% healing buff
Lustrate/Indominability
Eye for an Eye
Virus

AST has a slightly higher mana pool than SCH, but vastly smaller mana recovery options.
An instant cast benefic2 doesn't help increase healing throughput, it simply gives you the heal at the start of the GCD instead of after it.
This is good for times when a dps accidentally takes a hit they shouldn't, and somehow barely survives, but its not good when you need *burst* healing for 20 seconds.
Essential Dignity is amazing, but its the only real emergency tool that AST have.
Not having eye for an eye is a huge drawback, but it doesn't surprise me that many people fail to see its value.

AST doesn't have any cooldowns to increase potency, only to decrease it. Arrow card on self is the only way they can increase their effective healing throughput, or a bole card, which is less effective than sacred soil. Neither card can be reliably used for an "emergency" without negating the only real support that they can offer.

AST can heal within normal range just fine, its when you try to push the limits of what is possible that their shortcomings show clearly. Try running a dungeon where you pull 4 groups of trash at a time, watch the tank pop cooldowns, and the AST, try as they might, have a very hard cap on how much healing throughput they can do in a 30s burst window. Both WHM and SCH will leave them in the dust.

Hopefully SE will address their shortcomings before savage comes out. It is a fun class, it just feels handicapped right now.

[Parawill]

AST doesn't have any cooldowns to increase potency, only to decrease it.

OMG. You have no idea how hard I just laughed at this. This is as blunt as it gets. Oh my goodness! I love you!

[Leiloni]

As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.

The only people who should outheal a WHM is another WHM unless somebody is doing something really wrong. Either the WHM is really slacking or you are really overhealing by a lot. Especially since SCH focuses more on preventing damage than healing it back up.

[Krixus]

As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.

Ahahaha, that was a good laugh.

I rarely see a sch break even 1k HPS including their fairy. While a whm that is nodding off will be 1500+. Mitigation is the name of the game for sch, you will never outheal a whm or astro. And you can't count shields into HPS because things like succor are often not used because the player didnt take dmg. Obviously this doesnt reflect anything bad about sch's, I just thought it was hilarious he said he outheals whms.

[GideonHighmourn]

Ahahaha, that was a good laugh.

I rarely see a sch break even 1k HPS including their fairy. While a whm that is nodding off will be 1500+. Mitigation is the name of the game for sch, you will never outheal a whm or astro. And you can't count shields into HPS because things like succor are often not used because the player didnt take dmg. Obviously this doesnt reflect anything bad about sch's, I just thought it was hilarious he said he outheals whms.

It's fully possible, whether you think it is or not. Especially the AST part; while in PF, I often outheal ASTs by 50% or more while maintaining 250+ DPS on SCH in Alexander. Just because you're not capable of doing it, doesn't mean other people aren't. And the 1k HPS part? Seriously? With Indomitability and Emergency Tactics, SCH's burst healing capacity is pretty beefy.