Bard and how to fix it.

[Zazago]

Hi,

If you are a Bard try to join the Raid on Bismark. You are useless DPS compared to Dragoons and Monks. No one needs your songs, and you feel petty for yourself and the Raid leader kicks you out.
The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards fail.
The Wanderer Minutes adds to the pain with the alleged increase in Damage of 30% your skills are slow and you lose movement as you have to stand still.

I suffered in Bismark the humiliation and now I have to dumb this Bard job and start all over making a Dragoon. The solution by the way is simple. return to the Bard his dignity, no one wants his songs. Give him mobility and reduce or eliminate the skill time but keep the 30% damage increase.

I am sure that FF14 knows this and wants to save the BArd job, but they are too slow to respond. how disappointing

[RiceisNice]

The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. [/B] In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards fail.

What? If there's anything BRD/MCH is good at, its burst damage with cooldowns, barrage and empyreal arrow. Hell, bard is probably better in this department because most vulnerbility phases don't give enough time for wildfire to do its job. I've cleared bis as a MCH before 3.01, their dps isn't bad to the point that they should be benched or its hindering progression. I will only agree to the fact that current encounters aren't designed in a way (nor should it to be honest) that TP/MP regen is absolutely required to force you to bring a BRD/MCH, but at the same time a MCH/BRD shouldn't be pigeon holed to naturally dealing less damage because they have those abilities (because you know, they already incur a damage penalty when using them anyway).

And from a design perspective the job's gameplay suffered quite a bit. You can claim that people adjusted to it, and that much is true. Poor implementation remains poor implementation, regardless of whether the players adjusted to it or not. Hence why the OP made this thread.

Since you are asking for explanations, I'll indulge you:

The base design of BRD and WM as implemented clash because cast times and reliance on off-GCD abilities & procs don't mesh well. The intent of the changes also doesn't make much sense, since WM is introduced so late in BRD's relative "life" and implemented in such a ham-fisted way that it doesn't feel like natural growth of the job. It's no surprise that people who are just picking up the job also seem to be saying that the change is too abrupt and feels clunky as hell despite the nice DPS numbers.

If the devs want to stick with WM, then WM has to do more than just add cast times to shots. It has to change procs and other mechanics attached to BRD, maybe even go as far as change the effects of the various shots while active. If they were to do this, then you could see its inclusion as something truly added to the job instead of something tossed in for the sake of introducing change.

If that's not going to happen, then WM has to be reworked to limit its effect on the job's gameplay so that it feels more natural to the job, be redesigned for the purpose of same, or be outright removed and replaced with something else.

The last, and most work-intensive option would be to change the base ARC and BRD mechanics to fit better with WM (as the OP mentioned, removing potency from utility shots and changing the way Bloodletter procs work would go a long away in helping).

Honestly after looking at previews for MCH, I initially thought they were going with them being the stationary ranged DPS, somewhat akin to marksman hunters from WoW. Then they decided to give gauss barrel Wanderer's Minuet for bards because why not. I think these two abilities are the only ones in the game that are functionally exactly the same.

The least intensive work I'd imagine is allowing them to do oGCDs while casting or reworking River of Blood's interaction with WM. Though honestly I wouldn't mind if they rework bard or machinist either, the two have way too similar tool kits and gameflow when WM/GB is considered, with one clearly being designed around it.

[Dante_V]

Hi,

If you are a Bard try to join the Raid on Bismark. You are useless DPS compared to Dragoons and Monks. No one needs your songs, and you feel petty for yourself and the Raid leader kicks you out.
The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards

I suffered in Bismark the humiliation and now I have to dumb this Bard job and start all over making a Dragoon. The solution by the way is simple. return to the Bard his dignity, no one wants his songs. Give him mobility and reduce or eliminate the skill time but keep the 30% damage increase.

I am sure that FF14 knows this and wants to save the BArd job, but they are too slow to respond. how disappointing

I got my clear with a bard in the group and know many bards personally who have cleared this fight even before the WM buff. Bards are not bad dps classes.

[Greywolfamakir]

Bards are not bad dps classes.

BRD and MCH are the lowest DPS jobs, at the same lvl of skill ofc...
Do You need support?
Yes: Fine, take a BRD or a MCH.
No: Fine, take real DPS jobs or take a BRD or MCH and carry him.

[Dante_V]

BRD and MCH are the lowest DPS jobs, at the same lvl of skill ofc...
Do You need support?
Yes: Fine, take a BRD or a MCH.
No: Fine, take real DPS jobs or take a BRD or MCH and carry him.

There is no fight in this game that is so dps dependent that bringing a bard will impair the group and similar logic can be used to not bring a pally. But regardless of hyperbole and rhetoric if your teams dps is so low that bringing a bard is what is going to make it or break it then that's not the bards fault. Beyond that certain mechanics such as red/blue fire in t12 posit a situation where bard becomes the most efficient dps to handle them as they can move and attack. The party wide support bard brings was almost mandatory in final coil and once the echo was added any dps disparity became irrelevant so the nonsense of "once progression is done bard is useless" is simply nonsense.

[Neyka]

Honestly, Bismark Ex is a terrible fight to compare dps classes with. It's probably most friendly to summoners and ninjas, much less friendly to any class that needs to sustain a buff (nothing like killing everything fast, and then watching your buff tick off while the dragon killers reel in Bismark).

That said, the Bismark Ex run I was in the other day, the top dps was a bard.

Alex 1 or Alex 4 is probably a better fight to judge dps.

But back to topic, it sounds like Bards feel like their current skills are clunky, and don't flow well together, and the fixes are more about adding fun to the class without adding power.

[Snowaeth]

But back to topic, it sounds like Bards feel like their current skills are clunky, and don't flow well together, and the fixes are more about adding fun to the class without adding power.

These are pretty much the main issues when playing in WM yes.

The other issues that players have are more vague and concern playstyle change, mobility, lack of old rotation security, etc.
Those are not things we can come up with solutions for, unless SE suddenly lets us know that they will be redesigning/removing WM or something like that, which is not likely to happen.

Thus yea despite not really liking it, sucking it up and trying to improve on what we have might be the best course.
The other complaints shouldn't be just ignored though and absolutely looked at, I just don't think we can do much about them without SE going as far as dropping the current WM idea.

As for people that don't play bard and are commenting without putting the effort in of understanding where bards are coming from.
If you watch South Park, this is basically what it comes down to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvD9TawMqCY

[lugiaXD]

I got my clear with a bard in the group and know many bards personally who have cleared this fight even before the WM buff. Bards are not bad dps classes.

indeed good sir indeed honestly the only issue i really have with WM is the playstyle shift and overall clunkiness.