Ninja: Heaven-Sword (And Beyond)

[AlphaDragoon]

Yes, the weapon is a better piece, but that's always true for every class. The only exception I've ever seen for that was i90 BRD. If you're complaining that it's trash because it doesn't beat the weapon, then everything is trash, always. Or, y'know, maybe you could just base it on stats compared to the other pieces that aren't the single best upgrade possible under every circumstance. Meanwhile, if you're comparing it to the i190 chest, you have to make up 7 DEX worth in secondary stats. If our 3.05 weights are anything at all similar to the DRG ones, that's not gonna happen. You would need close to a 70 secondary stat difference to make that happen. If you're comparing the i210 pieces, yes the Gordian is better. But if you really think that 15 DEX and 60 SS lose to 69 Crit and 46 Det in HW, you're crazy.

Good to know that it's inaaccurate, thank you for telling me that. But you can chill with the insults (you're crazy, etc.). I've done nothing to you and certainly don't think I've done anything to warrant your kind of aggressive response. If I did, please explain because I certainly didn't mean it.

And I was basing my judgement on the fact that with the gear I have now it seems like the (unupgraded) Eso chest seems to be basically a downgrade at any level compared to the other options available, including never buying it period. The only reason it looks like you would ever want to buy it is if you've exhausted all other options to get the ACC you need and still can't do it. And that's not really good. The Melee Cyclas back in the T5 days was the same, where the Fuma Koromo was actually better. And it had the same stats as the NIN Eso chest...ACC + SS.

Again, if that is incorrect and you have updated data I can look at to prove it, I would welcome it. I'd would actually love to be wrong about this. After all, I like the way the Eso chest looks and would enjoy being able to actually use it.

[Arkenne]

About Skill Speed

Well... while its definitely true that too much Skill Speed can be pretty TP unhealty, the scaling of the stat is a lot different from the model at lvl 50, and NIN does need to reach a certain amount of Skill Speed to get their GCD reduced down to nearly or exactly 2 seconds.

This scaling is yet to be known but at least I do know that at 655 its 2.02 (not saying 655 = 2.02 but that it gives you that much). So when you play with your BiS, you should take into consideration the next things:

1) ACC cap
2) Enough SS to get 2.0X GCDs with Huton
3) As much DET and Crit as you want

The current i180~210 gears have such a different set of second stats that lets you fairly play with them pretty well.
You could go from full 1k or so Skill Speed (which would mean about 1.91 GCDs) to 500 or so, and DET can wind in from the 340 to 500 or more. Of course, lets try not to compromise too much DEX, but unlike DET, Skill Speed has a much more tangible value for us to determine "this is as much as I want".

[Viridiana]

Good to know that it's inaaccurate, thank you for telling me that.

I mean, the site itself tells you that.

This damage calculator is based on data obtained from Monk. It should be accurate for stat ranges of (20 ≤ WD ≤ 46), (300 ≤ STR ≤ 530), and (202 ≤ DTR ≤ 280).

Anything that isn't a MNK and that's past i90 is outside the scope of the data Valk gathered way back in Beta. The site hasn't even been updated since November 2013. Even when it was still current, the data points were off by anywhere from 1.5 to 5 points, and if you notice, there's no correction listed for NIN because NIN didn't exist yet. Plus it clearly hasn't been updated for the massive damage formula overhaul that happened in 3.0. . .

But you can chill with the insults (you're crazy, etc.). I've done nothing to you and certainly don't think I've done anything to warrant your kind of aggressive response. If I did, please explain because I certainly didn't mean it.

Sorry that came off as insulting.

And I was basing my judgement on the fact that with the gear I have now it seems like the (unupgraded) Eso chest seems to be basically a downgrade at any level compared to the other options available, including never buying it period. The only reason it looks like you would ever want to buy it is if you've exhausted all other options to get the ACC you need and still can't do it. And that's not really good. The Melee Cyclas back in the T5 days was the same, where the Fuma Koromo was actually better. And it had the same stats as the NIN Eso chest...ACC + SS.

Several things wrong with this. First, I seriously doubt you have accurate stat weights. From what I've seen, no one does yet, because there's no working damage formula for NIN (the one Dervy has for DRG is not accurate for NIN). And since there's no damage formula, there's also no working sim or even solver. Thus, no stat weights. That said, we can look at the DRG weights that have been posted to get an idea of what ours might look like. Basically, with the stats on gear now, DRG stat weights have all dropped down into the .1xx range to STR's 1.000. The highest they have posted is Crit at .162. While we obviously can't expect the NIN weights to be the same as the DRG weights, I would be very surprised if any of the NIN weights went as high as .200.

For Prototype Gordian to beat Antiquated Iga, you need 74 Det to beat 7 Dex and 60 SS. Or, as a formula:

74D > 7+60S
1D > .094 + .811S

Basically, if Skillspeed is worth even a .100 weight, Determination has to be a .175 weight in order to make up the difference. With the changes to stats in general and to Determination specifically, I doubt it's weighted that high.

Also, the Fuma Koromo is a bad example, since it was Crit/Det versus Acc/SS, while the gear you're talking about now is Acc/Det vs Acc/SS. And even if we dropped all the way down to the Asuran gear that actually is Crit/Det, you're still looking at needing an average rating of .182 split between the Crit and Det to make up 15 Dex and 6 Dex of SS.

Again, if that is incorrect and you have updated data I can look at to prove it, I would welcome it. I'd would actually love to be wrong about this. After all, I like the way the Eso chest looks and would enjoy being able to actually use it.

Unfortunately, hard data is in short supply because we've all been slacking on a proper NIN formula and simulator. All I can provide is what I provided above, which is what the weights would have to be to make it a downgrade, and why I think the actual weights do not meet those cutoff points.

[AlphaDragoon]

Information regarding stats

So I suppose my first upgrade based on this should be the Eso chest instead of the weapon because I was going to have to drop two Alex accessories in order to have the ACC to hit cap (currently at 538 without food). If I buy the Eso chest I can use the better accessories and still have the ACC I need, and it won't be worse than what I'm already wearing from the massive loss of secondary stats which was my fear. Thank you for your information.

[Viridiana]

So I suppose my first upgrade based on this should be the Eso chest instead of the weapon because I was going to have to drop two Alex accessories in order to have the ACC to hit cap (currently at 538 without food). If I buy the Eso chest I can use the better accessories and still have the ACC I need, and it won't be worse than what I'm already wearing from the massive loss of secondary stats which was my fear. Thank you for your information.

Hmm. . .not sure how far along in progression you are, but based on your gear you might be better served dropping down to the Asuran boots instead of dropping 2 accessories. Downgrading from the Prototype boots to the Asuran ones would take you from 538 Acc to 580 without food, which seems to be the SA1 cap. You'd lose 5 Dex straight up, and another ~4.5-6 from the Determination. The Crit gain would outweigh the SS loss, so let's say it's about a 10.5 Dex loss overall? Downgrading two accessories from 190 to 180 is 8 straight Dex, leaving only about 25 secondary stats worth before it becomes a worse option than the boots.

You could also work towards the i190 pants or chest. Pants would be faster if you don't have any tokens already, but chest is the better piece overall (Det instead of SS). Either one gets you close to the SA2 cap even after switching back to i190 boots.

My personal recommendation would be to drop down to i180 boots for accuracy until you can get the i190 chest or pants (preferably chest, though) and save for the weapon. Weapon Damage really is king. Even though with your current gear you're looking at 180 -> 200 for chest and only 190 -> 200 for weapon, I'm still pretty confident saying that the weapon is a bigger upgrade.

[MiruWest]

What kind of DPS are you guys doing on Faust/A1? And what is your ilvl?

[Laur1x]

How do you guys do your opener when you have a WAR applying Storm's Eye ASAP?

[Layke]

How do you guys do your opener when you have a WAR applying Storm's Eye ASAP?

Pre-cast Huton and wait 20s to pull --> (Suiton) --> SE --> (Kas) --> GS --> (B4B) --> AE --> (IR) --> SE --> (TA) --> SF --> (Raiton) --> MU --> (Mug/Dream) --> SE --> (Jug) --> GS --> (Duality) --> AE

[CodeCass]

yea I wish the esoteric chest was better. It looks so damn good though D:

Can I take that to mean that the Alex (normal mode here) chest is better than the Esoteric chest?

I'm not very good at figuring out the best mixture of gear personally (just started doing Alex Normal last night) but I'd like to know what to start buying. Right now I'm still trying to get all my non-Law gears updated, but I'm currently sitting at i173. I made a big noob mistake by getting all my right side gear first...but hey, what's done is done. Otherwise, I've gotten the Law headpiece and upgraded weapon, and grabbed the Esoteric belt just because I could for the left side. So now I'm capped again on Esoteric tomes for the week and trying to figure out what to do next, and what mixture of Esoteric and Alex gears I should have. Should I save up my Esoterics to grab up the weapon first, or go for something else? Any help in this would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT:
So after perusing the forums for a bit this morning, I'm seeing lots of people saying go for the Esoteric weapon first. I can agree with that, being as I'm solely DPS. So if THAT'S, what should I be looking at after gaining the Eso weapon?

[Kuroyasha]

quote

When I said I wish it was better I meant in comparison to the Savage chest. I should've made that clearer in my post. As for what to get after, I assume the weakest thing you'll have is the 180 chest since it takes the longest to get in Normal. Upgrading to it after the weapon wouldn't be a bad thing to do. getting other 190 pieces from normal is pretty fast outside of the chest.