[Feedback] Character Development and Builds

[justinjarjar]

I find that blizzard has never had PvP and PvE balanced. A huge difference is racial abilities which make it hard to balance around already (they should get rid of them). In many cases one of those branches is a PvP focused like frost mage. Other times one tree is just better out right. Then come comparing lets go with tanks, druid bear form still is very weak, the DK tank form has always had balance problems., etc. Saying blizzard has done a good job with balance is a bit far fetched they have been dumbing down the skill trees since WotLK to try to have less variables to balance. Even now FF14 is seeing balance issues that need fixing right now, adding choice seems like it will just make it longer for the FF14 team to balance which I am not a fan of.

[Nurvus]

I find that blizzard has never had PvP and PvE balanced.

They have a lot more mobility, CC and complicated effects available in PvP. It's not really a fair comparison.
At this point only PvE is worth comparing.

A huge difference is racial abilities which make it hard to balance around already (they should get rid of them).

Not really. The racials add flavor and can easily be balanced (without making them dull or homogenized).
Blizzard is just not even trying to balance them properly. Perhaps they are afraid people stop paying for race changes.

In many cases one of those branches is a PvP focused like frost mage. Other times one tree is just better out right. Then come comparing lets go with tanks, druid bear form still is very weak, the DK tank form has always had balance problems., etc.

First, the game is balanced enough that only high end competitive guilds really notice those differences.
Furthermore, those differences are largely influenced by the poor itemization the game has - the gear scales up exponentially, and so fast, that it causes classes to be balanced at a certain point and under/overperform before/after that point.

Saying blizzard has done a good job with balance is a bit far fetched they have been dumbing down the skill trees since WotLK to try to have less variables to balance. Even now FF14 is seeing balance issues that need fixing right now, adding choice seems like it will just make it longer for the FF14 team to balance which I am not a fan of.

Considering the fact they have over 10x as many builds to "balance" than SE does, yeah, they're doing a great job, because WoW isn't far behind in balance comparing to FFXIV.
In WoW people "pick the best builds". And there are at dozens of "best builds".
FFXIV has 13 builds and they are picked for you.

In terms of subscriptions, this game will do fine for people who enjoy having a single character.
But for altoholics, it may quickly lose its appeal.

Combat and class design are the only things FFXIV is still behind WoW (in my opinion).
If SE steps up to the challenge, the game will flourish in a way Blizzard would never see it coming.

[justinjarjar]

They have a lot more mobility, CC and complicated effects available in PvP. It's not really a fair comparison.
At this point only PvE is worth comparing.


Not really. The racials add flavor and can easily be balanced (without making them dull or homogenized).
Blizzard is just not even trying to balance them properly. Perhaps they are afraid people stop paying for race changes.


First, the game is balanced enough that only high end competitive guilds really notice those differences.
Furthermore, those differences are largely influenced by the poor itemization the game has - the gear scales up exponentially, and so fast, that it causes classes to be balanced at a certain point and under/overperform before/after that point.WoW people "pick the best builds". And there are at dozens of "best builds".
FFXIV has 13 builds and they are picked for you.

In terms of subscriptions, this game will do fine for people who enjoy having a single character.
But for altoholics, it may quickly lose its appeal.

Combat and class design are the only things FFXIV is still behind WoW (in my opinion).
If SE steps up to the challenge, the game will flourish in a way Blizzard would never see it coming.

You have obv. never raided in wow... I have had to level alts since priest was not viable one patch then broken the next. Anyone using WoW as a model of balance does not know what they are talking about. Now that we are talking about PvP and PvE builds it might be a good fix for this games poor excuse of PvP. Anyways just played SWToR to raid level (on four different characters) and for the most part there is one one good build for PvE and one for PvP you might change like one skill to lower dps for movement speed (IE sniper), but for actually builds there are 8 classes in total. The variations are so slight they do not matter. I still think that the current system works fine and if anything it would be a waste of time for the developers to do.

[Nurvus]

You have obv. never raided in wow... I have had to level alts since priest was not viable one patch then broken the next. Anyone using WoW as a model of balance does not know what they are talking about. (...) I still think that the current system works fine and if anything it would be a waste of time for the developers to do.

I don't understand your point...
1 - WoW has 34 specs, and since WoD, most specs have had at least 3 viable talent setups that meaningfully affect your rotation (such that it gives off a different feel while playing).
That's over 100 viable builds.
2 - Whether some encounters prefer certain builds is irrelevant, because the same happens in FFXIV, you just have less to choose from, and a set of buffs/debuffs you want to make sure your group has access to.
3 - Even if Blizzard screwed up so bad than only 1 build was viable per spec for a while, that'd still be around 3x the amount of builds we have in FFXIV...

How does that suddenly paint build variety in such negative tone that it justifies having NO customization at all?
Or rather, even if you're not interested in build customization yourself - which is fine - why is build diversity so bad that you wish no one else gets it either?

[justinjarjar]

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Well lets look at it this way, a normal endgamer has lets say an average of 2 toons. For example I mained priest and had rouge on the side. On priest I can pick three specs or lets say classes, Shadow, holy, and disc. Now disc and shadow had one build for pve and one for pvp (we separate skills and balances for pvp). Holy had two builds both of which where sub-optimal compared to other pure healer builds (disc was strong when I left it goes up and down, biggest op one patch then shit the next spec). So with loadsof work I can play 4 different builds, which aftering gearing turns into one (set bonuses making you set into one spec for the next raid or season). That is why people tended to have a second toon (similar to this game) to get around gear lock. So my rouge has three specs each basically their own classes, well only ever played the pvp class (which a few pure dps classes had) since by the time I left I was only playing pvp end game.Overall you played two classes like this game overall. Which both had one build that you played. The whole spec building is an illusion of freedom when in fact you play almost the same way as you do in this game, aka it is a waste of everyones time. WoW also has had many periods of unbalance in game and has yet to figure it out completely.

[Nurvus]

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Both WoW and FFXIV are unbalanced.
You notice it less in FFXIV, because A) stat jumps are smaller; B) theorycrafting is simpler; C) each class has a set of effects you want in a group; D) you can be all classes in one character

However, think better about the example you've given after realizing that a spec in WoW is equivalent to a full Job in FFXIV.
Dropping Holy Priest to play Discipline Priest is be equivalent to dropping White Mage to play Astrologian or Scholar.

I'm not asking for more Jobs, merely for flavorful variations in the way you can fulfil the exact same role within the same Job - I'm talking about the equivalent to Talents and/or Glyphs.
The rotation and feel of a Retribution Paladin that uses Seraphim & Holy Avenger is different from one that uses Sanctified Wrath+Final Verdict or Divine Purpose+Final Verdict, and yet, their performance is close enough that you won't notice a difference for at least 95% of your playtime, and therefore you will have fun the way you want to.

Hardcore guilds requiring specific builds due to 1% improvement on your performance is nothing new, and is just as likely to happen if White Mage is 1% better than Astrologian, but you can still play the way you want outside progress content.

I'm not trying to win a debate or anything, I just think SE is falling short on the creativity and depth they've gotten me used to in many of their games, where it comes to variety.