Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

[StouterTaru]

Wouldn't you have to wait for an mp tick for that B4 (unless piety >= 310), whereas you never wait for the mp to cast T1 if Piety >= 284? So your statement is true if Piety <= 283 or tick timing was perfect. Its not true if Piety is between 284 and 309 and tick timing wasn't perfect. Its true again, if Piety is 310+ or tick timing was perfect.

If you're always casting T1 after B4, then the math is the same as always casting T1 before B4, and the piety stays the same. You're looking at:
B4 (no tick) > F3 > F1 + 4xF4 > B3 > T1
vs
T1 (no tick) > F3 > F1 + 4xF4 > B3 > B4

So your formula is for all Thunder damage, assuming recast of T1 if you don't get a proc?

I guess you could use that to compare whether or not it's worth casting any Thunder at all if you get a quick MP tick in UI, but it doesn't take that much math to get the answer. The entire rotation without Thunder is around 150 PPS (using your 2.2s GCD), so adding thunder will be a dps gain 99% of the time.

[Aloise]

So your formula is for all Thunder damage, assuming recast of T1 if you don't get a proc?

I guess you could use that to compare whether or not it's worth casting any Thunder at all if you get a quick MP tick in UI, but it doesn't take that much math to get the answer. The entire rotation without Thunder is around 150 PPS (using your 2.2s GCD), so adding thunder will be a dps gain 99% of the time.

When you cast T1, it and the resulting procs will sum to an average of a 175 PPS attack to your rotation. F4 adds, always, a ~190 PPS attack to your rotation. Getting in an extra F4 instead of a T1 is a PPS gain, and this does not take into consideration the fact that you might have to sacrifice multiple F4s to get to that 175 PPS Thunder chain. Re-read my statement. I have two conditions attached to when casting T1 is a PPS loss, and they are fast tick + lose a F4 as a result. Whether or not it's a PPS loss when you don't lose a F4 is in the air.

[StouterTaru]

When you cast T1, it and the resulting procs will sum to an average of a 175 PPS attack to your rotation. F4 adds, always, a ~190 PPS attack to your rotation. Getting in an extra F4 instead of a T1 is a PPS gain, and this does not take into consideration the fact that you might have to sacrifice multiple F4s to get to that 175 PPS Thunder chain. Re-read my statement. I have two conditions attached to when casting T1 is a PPS loss, and they are fast tick + lose a F4 as a result. Whether or not it's a PPS loss when you don't lose a F4 is in the air.

You're not sacrificing multiple F4s; you're sacrificing F4s, F3s, F1s, B3s, and B4s by making your rotation take longer.

The only time you actually sacrifice a F4 is after your 2nd B4. At that point, you're giving up a F4 for a T1, clipped TC, and an extra F1 (since you have 3300 MP when Enochian falls). Casting those increases the dps of your entire rotation more than a single F4.

[Aloise]

You're not sacrificing multiple F4s; you're sacrificing F4s, F3s, F1s, B3s, and B4s by making your rotation take longer.

The only time you actually sacrifice a F4 is after your 2nd B4. At that point, you're giving up a F4 for a T1, clipped TC, and an extra F1 (since you have 3300 MP when Enochian falls). Casting those increases the dps of your entire rotation more than a single F4.

You are speaking in terms of a single 30-25-20s Eno cycle, I am speaking in terms of an entire fight. You push your GCDs back by having to cast T1 and use T3Ps. Because Enochian is up before the 20s Enochian is over, the quicker you can get to the end of it, the quicker you can pump out more F4.

[StouterTaru]

You are speaking in terms of a single 3-Eno cycle, I am speaking in terms of an entire fight.

An entire fight is made up of multiple 3-Eno cycles. If you do 10 eno cycles at 150 PPS in the same time you could otherwise do 9 eno cycles at 155 PPS, which is more damage?

You push your GCDs back by having to cast T1 and use T3Ps. Because Enochian is up before the 20s Enochian is over, the quicker you can get to the end of it, the quicker you can pump out more F4.

To pump out those extra F4s, you need to pump out extra F3s, F1s, B3s, and B4s.

[Aloise]

An entire fight is made up of multiple 3-Eno cycles. If you do 10 eno cycles at 150 PPS in the same time you could otherwise do 9 eno cycles at 155 PPS, which is more damage?

This is fair. However, there are still cases where casting T1/using T3Ps can slide off ONLY F4s from your rotation. In those cases, it is a DPS loss, but I do see the point now.

At the very least, I've procured some nice numbers about Thunder.

Now I won't be able to sleep until I figure out how much of a gain it is. Great.

[Aloise]

Now I won't be able to sleep until I figure out how much of a gain it is. Great.

Easier than I anticipated. It's about 2-3 PPS more, if that. This is being generous, by assuming that every single T1 cast results in the maximum PPS, and that you have to recast T1 after every B3. I'm not sure about the interaction between using a proc instead of a T1 cast. If you consider it a contributor to the original T1 cast, it's a PPS loss. If you don't consider it that, and break off the old PPS at that point...It's probably an increase, but I'm not sure about that interaction, but I do know it involved a lot more probability mucking and leads to the sort of madness I'm trying to avoid. So we'll call it even. Around a 3 PPS increase to cast Thunder 1.

[Garotte14]

Easier than I anticipated. It's about 2-3 PPS more, if that. This is being generous, by assuming that every single T1 cast results in the maximum PPS, and that you have to recast T1 after every B3. I'm not sure about the interaction between using a proc instead of a T1 cast. If you consider it a contributor to the original T1 cast, it's a PPS loss. If you don't consider it that, and break off the old PPS at that point...It's probably an increase, but I'm not sure about that interaction, but I do know it involved a lot more probability mucking and leads to the sort of madness I'm trying to avoid. So we'll call it even. Around a 3 PPS increase to cast Thunder 1.

I actually think in this discussion, its much more simple than all of that. Math is tough in this instance because of the RNG of TC procs, but I look a bit more practically at the fights. (Raiding to be more specific) With the exception of A9S, there is a lot of movement in these fights. The more Thunder is ticking, the more potential for TC procs to help with movement which is always, undeniably a dps increase over scathe or nothing at all. Thunder should be up as much as possible for this reason. The only reason I would not cast Thunder would be if it would cause me to lose Enochian. My only argument, is you need to cast a filler after Blizzard III no matter if you get a fast server tick or not because you spell should be qued before blizzard III is finished. I also play with 2 Piety melds, putting me at 284 Piety, which I HIGHLY recommend to any BLM who raids at a higher level. I sacrifice only 2 crit Vs, and the benefits are astronomical.

[AlphaFox]

So a question that I am curious on, when it comes to AOE and Flare is it really worth to use it at the end of F2? I feel like I got so much down time doing Flare>Transpose and waiting for a tick as opposed to maybe doing F2>B3>Freeze (while MP regains) then switching back to F3>F2.

Note that I am going on the first page saying to use flare at the end of every F2 set, not so much when I think on Flare>Convert>Flare combo.

[StouterTaru]

So a question that I am curious on, when it comes to AOE and Flare is it really worth to use it at the end of F2?

I started doing the math expecting to tell you Flare was better, then weird stuff happened. The following rotations are built around a 3 second MP tick, so this makes dramatic tiers for Spell Speed:

F3 > 2xF2 > Flare > Transpose (15 seconds at ~900 SS)

	3 mobs	4 mobs	5 mobs	6 mobs	7 mobs	8 mobs
F3	216	216	216	216	216	216
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
Flare	1264	1591	1872	2106	2340	2574
Total	2560	3247	3888	4482	5076	5670
15s DPS	171	216	259	299	338	378

F3 > 3xF2 > B3 > Freeze (hard to maintain 15 seconds at 1140 SS)

	3 mobs	4 mobs	5 mobs	6 mobs	7 mobs	8 mobs
F3	168	168	168	168	168	168
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
B3	168	168	168	168	168	168
Freeze	300	400	500	600	700	800
Total	2256	2896	3536	4176	4816	5456
15s DPS	150	193	236	278	321	364

F3 > 4xF2 > B3 > Freeze (not too hard to maintain 18 seconds at 1140 SS with practice)

	3 mobs	4 mobs	5 mobs	6 mobs	7 mobs	8 mobs
F3	168	168	168	168	168	168
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
F2	540	720	900	1080	1260	1440
B3	168	168	168	168	168	168
Freeze	300	400	500	600	700	800
Total	2796	3616	4436	5256	6076	6896
18s DPS	155	201	246	292	338	383

tldr; Flare kills in small packs, not so much in giant swarms when you have high Spell Speed.