WAR...

[Lampost]

Let me start by saying I'm happy with how they changed warriors. I love having one as an OT. But with the addition of crazy dps, warriors have become brain dead mongoloids. Speaking purely from the party finder and duty finder stand point. WAR players seem to think they aren't tanks anymore. For instance I had a WAR in A3 never leave deliverance. Even when we were supposed tank swap he refused until I had 8 stacks and died. But still had deliverance up. Saying if I needed to drop threat I should have just turned off grit. When I'm healing or even tanking. The best tanks I've been with are DRK. Rant end.

[GeekMatt]

Fully expected "uh! Good god! What is it good for, absolutely nothin'!"

[OliviaBadger]

Ah, I think you are misunderstanding something:

The warrrior's dps is the single most important factor in any raid, and your entire raid should revolve around your warrior trying to maximise his dps. As an MT, you should willingly die to increase your warrior's dps. Healer's should be willing to burn through twice as much mana to heal your warrior in deliverance to increase his dps. If you are a dps, you should go do mechanics while the warrior stays on the boss, since his dps is more important than the other actual dps. If a warrior does a critical hit fell cleave, he must alert the entire party, and they should all stop what they are doing and bow down to the warrior in awe.

[SpookyGhost]

There are WARs out there who won't turn off Deliverance... but at the same time, whoever said you should turn off Grit is right. You can't really be sitting around in your tank stance when a swap needs to happen. Considering how lightly the boss taps you when you have 0 stacks (and considering how late in that phase you actually need to swap), it's better for the OT to just stay in Deliverance, the MT drop their tank stance, and then proceed from there. Most groups swap at 4~5, so around that point you'd want to drop Grit and pop a small CD to ensure you can survive until the swap happens.

[Whiteroom]

From a healing perspective, I can't stand War MTs in 3.0. DRK or PLD anytime. The know it all WAR I had in A4 a couple of days back, who thought he was super tank and could do everything while MT. And they still do huge pulls...

[Slappah]

Ah, I think you are misunderstanding something:

The warrrior's dps is the single most important factor in any raid, and your entire raid should revolve around your warrior trying to maximise his dps. As an MT, you should willingly die to increase your warrior's dps. Healer's should be willing to burn through twice as much mana to heal your warrior in deliverance to increase his dps. If you are a dps, you should go do mechanics while the warrior stays on the boss, since his dps is more important than the other actual dps. If a warrior does a critical hit fell cleave, he must alert the entire party, and they should all stop what they are doing and bow down to the warrior in awe.

You all need to listen to this person, spittin straight facts.

[Teno]

...

Well, even if you're being sarcastic, what you're saying is fundamentally true. The raid should always push its tanks to dps the maximum amount of time. The same goes for healers. That's the mark of good players. Regarding DF/PF, that's another story, but I'd rather have a tank in deliverance than in defiance the whole time (looking at you ravana).

[Allyrion]

Well, even if you're being sarcastic, what you're saying is fundamentally true. The raid should always push its tanks to dps the maximum amount of time. The same goes for healers. That's the mark of good players. Regarding DF/PF, that's another story, but I'd rather have a tank in deliverance than in defiance the whole time (looking at you ravana).

I don't see that. You should try to do your best every encounter, but when you're clearing content the most important thing is getting the kill. Securing a kill and killing efficiently can coincide, but it's not always the case.

World first groups and top FCs have their healers and tanks doing decent dps, sure. But you always see them play it somewhat safe side for their first kill. There's a reason for that. Stability is more valuable than efficiency when dealing with the unfamiliar or unmastered.

The mark of the good player is not just understanding how to push their limits, but it's how to do that appropriately with their goals in mind.
Good DPS makes a lot of fights cleaner, mind you. That's true, but tanks and healers are the pillars that hold the party together in stable place.
If you loosen your grip, you have to be sure the pressure is enough and you're not just making the other pillar hold your weight and that it all doesn't come crashing down.

So I don't think dps is some holy grail of being the best.
It's an attribute for better players who know the fights and their own limits well enough to contribute more than their role requires.
It's not just maximum time for tank dps, it's maximum appropriate time.
It's mostly misattributed when people don't know the fights well enough, or the party clearly needs a level of stability instead of efficiency.
Those don't need to conflict, but they can and you need to prioritize one over the other in some cases.

I don't know about you all, but getting the first kill is obviously the most important part of progression raiding to me.
And that's not the point you want to be on the razor's edge of efficiency because that just delays your kill.
It's after you've gotten the fight down, you can focus on the most efficient manner of killing and mastering it.

There's a lot of players that are lazy and don't go above and beyond what's needed of them to help the rest.
There's just as many players who misappropriate this 'dps makes you a better tank/healer' idea when they're not capable or it's not the right time, endangering the party or putting pressure elsewhere.
Even the good players who do it right still need to state it with the qualification that it's not just dpsing that makes you good, it's knowing your limits and that of the fight and knowing where you can push them with 100% confidence (not blind confidence, informed confidence).

[pouncing]

It sounds like you may have been getting some bandwagon warriors. granted warrior dps is really awsome right now it should never be a warriors top priority. The only time a warrior should be tanking in deliverance is if the content is stupid easy, he is off tanking, the content is hard but the boss hits like a noodle, or they have asked/know the healers and they are ok with it. any other time the warrior should be in defiance. damage in defiance is much lower but you can still out put about 3/5ths of the damage you would in deliverance.

If its a pug group tank in defiance or pop a cd (thrill of battle+convalescence=defiance) to get that sweet triple fell cleave berserk combo off

[Teno]

...

We've got the same point of view. I do not dps while I don't have the mechanics and timings down. My point, though not very much detailed, was that I'd rather have a tank knowing that he can dps, than one who never leaves defiance. It's more of a personal thing and exclusive to df and pf.

Now regarding statics, I mostly agree with you, and my point still holds. You must know when dps is more optimal than mitigating or healing.