If you could kill off one of the scions...

[Cilia]

snip

The Monetarists can't off Nanamo because she's a beloved figure. No other reason. Our reputation was a factor, but there was enough power to keep the city on lockdown and have the truth suppressed to the point nobody really knew what happened outside hushed rumors.

I didn't mind not having the Scions around, but the first act of Heavensward (up to Nidhogg's defeat) was rather long and done entirely in recompense for Ishgard sheltering us. Our rescue attempt then leads into the second act, which is done entirely because we're the Scions and primal slaying is our MO.

Nidhogg's rage is understandable, but it's the fact that he's pointing it at people undeserving of it that puts him in the wrong. The people who wronged him he either killed or are long dead, and the Dragonsong War is not a war meant to be won - it's an eternal punishment upon Isghard, even though modern Ishgardians are lied to as to why they're fighting their war against the Dravanian Horde. It's not that his fury is wrong, but that it's entirely misplaced, and he has no intention of ever giving it up. Thus, in order to save countless lives and save countless more from becoming enslaved to Nidhogg's vengeance, we put him down.

Yes, dragon lifetimes are far longer than that of a mortal's, but that excuse wore very thin. If it's Thordan and his Knights Twelve who wronged you, and they're dead, why do you need to continue exacting vengeance upon their children, and their children's children, for eternity?

[Fenral]

If I killed your sister, would you be obliged to forgive and forget? It's simply a matter of dragon lives being quite so long that makes this war as drawn-out as it is, but I cannot bring myself to disapprove of Nidhogg's fury and need for vengeance.

All the people he was mad at were long dead, and his "vengeance" after that was just giving the descendants of those people a legitimate reason to want to fight back, as people they knew were killed by dragons under his command. He planned to drag out the conflict in Ishgard indefinitely, deliberately seeding in them a hatred of dragons that he could then play as his moral justification. Without breaking the cycle, neither side could heal, but even knowing that he chose to persist in his vengeance, making things worse for his own kind as well.

Would you really ask another 1000 years of Ishgardians to simply hang in there and die so he can eventually sort out his issues, because killing him would be wrong? 1000 years of Dravanians to hang in there while they are killed in misdirected retaliation? The WoL has killed people for far less, and by the time we got there pretty much anyone who wanted to save him had tried and failed, Hraesvelgr included. If there was some hypothetical way to rehabilitate him without allowing him to cause further loss of life, that would be one thing, but in the absence of that letting him live would be the same as condemning all of Ishgard and a good portion of Dravania to die.

[Kallera]

I think the story made it clear that Nidhogg's was beyond reasoning, and his vengeance was insatiable, even by dragon standards.

[Frederick22]

If there was some hypothetical way to rehabilitate him without allowing him to cause further loss of life, that would be one thing, but in the absence of that letting him live would be the same as condemning all of Ishgard and a good portion of Dravania to die.

You mean that his father would be the only one who could make him see reason?

[LaurelinKementari]

Even Nidhogg's own father pretty much deems him a lost cause that has gone completely off the deep end.

(Mind you, as a side note, I'm not of the opinion that Hraesvelgr is morally any better than Nidhogg, but at least Hraesvelgr didn't want to continue the conflict after Nidhogg was slain. He just didn't want to end it either, the feathered arse.)

[Tenkuu]

I actually liked 3.0's story, though killing off a chunk of the characters leaves me wondering what's up. As much as the search for them is underway, I'm not looking forward to going back to the rising stones for another gala luncheon with Minfillia. It would feel like going backward, or "is this all I'm going to be doing"?

I've revisited Rising Stones (and occasionally Waking Sands but I don't have much reason to go to Western Thanalan) several times when I was in Mor Dhona, I would give anything for that "luncheon". In fact, don't the ending credits of ARR have, among others, one picture that shows everyone in Minfilia's office standing in front of her desk that is obviously loaded with food? I like to think this was our off-screen welcome back celebration when we all returned to Waking Sands.

[Morningstar1337]

Even Nidhogg's own father pretty much deems him a lost cause that has gone completely off the deep end.

(Mind you, as a side note, I'm not of the opinion that Hraesvelgr is morally any better than Nidhogg, but at least Hraesvelgr didn't want to continue the conflict after Nidhogg was slain. He just didn't want to end it either, the feathered arse.)

Hraesvelgr didn't directly continue the conflict, but last I checked, the only cases of Heterochromia iridium were on myself and G'hrara

[Tenkuu]

The Monetarists can't off Nanamo because she's a beloved figure. No other reason. Our reputation was a factor, but there was enough power to keep the city on lockdown and have the truth suppressed to the point nobody really knew what happened outside hushed rumors.

Not only because she's a beloved figure, it's also because they need the monarchy. They need things to not change. Technically speaking they certainly did suppress the truth, not so sure about the lockdown, but they knew very well that there would be a civil war if they tried too much against us. Everyone already seemed to know that the Warrior of Light and their allies attended a banquet held in their honor, after all.

I didn't mind not having the Scions around, but the first act of Heavensward (up to Nidhogg's defeat) was rather long and done entirely in recompense for Ishgard sheltering us. Our rescue attempt then leads into the second act, which is done entirely because we're the Scions and primal slaying is our MO.

To me it just felt like yeah, sure, we're helping them for helping us, but we're kinda not minding our own business at the same time. And yes, we're the Scions and we slay Primals, but we were down to literally two combatants and one secretary, and only of those combatants was doing any real fighting, not to mention we have none of the intelligence that the other Scions provided for us in the past, nor did we care. It was literally a disorganized mess.

Nidhogg's rage is understandable, but it's the fact that he's pointing it at people undeserving of it that puts him in the wrong. The people who wronged him he either killed or are long dead, and the Dragonsong War is not a war meant to be won - it's an eternal punishment upon Isghard, even though modern Ishgardians are lied to as to why they're fighting their war against the Dravanian Horde. It's not that his fury is wrong, but that it's entirely misplaced, and he has no intention of ever giving it up. Thus, in order to save countless lives and save countless more from becoming enslaved to Nidhogg's vengeance, we put him down.

You can argue that, but then again, from his point of view, there's nothing to actually redeem Ishgard either: they still have dragoons, they still hunt down dragons either for sport or to prove themselves, and they're still hiding the truth to make themselves look good. From Nidhogg's point of view, everyone is equally guilty because he views them as one people. Also, it's not as if Nidhogg would actually be aware that most Ishgardians don't have a clue about the war against the Dravanians. I don't even think Hraesvelgr knew, for that matter.

Yes, dragon lifetimes are far longer than that of a mortal's, but that excuse wore very thin. If it's Thordan and his Knights Twelve who wronged you, and they're dead, why do you need to continue exacting vengeance upon their children, and their children's children, for eternity?

It isn't really an excuse. In fact, it's akin to wanting the murderer of your sister to rot in jail for the rest of his life (and yours). As I mentioned above, I believe Nidhogg views the Ishgardians as one people, all responsible for the same sin. After all, if one Ishgardian can do it, why couldn't they all? After having trusted Ishgardians once and being betrayed horribly, why would he not think that he can't trust any Ishgardian ever again and that they would just as soon do it again?

[Tenkuu]

All the people he was mad at were long dead, and his "vengeance" after that was just giving the descendants of those people a legitimate reason to want to fight back, as people they knew were killed by dragons under his command. He planned to drag out the conflict in Ishgard indefinitely, deliberately seeding in them a hatred of dragons that he could then play as his moral justification. Without breaking the cycle, neither side could heal, but even knowing that he chose to persist in his vengeance, making things worse for his own kind as well.

Would you really ask another 1000 years of Ishgardians to simply hang in there and die so he can eventually sort out his issues, because killing him would be wrong? 1000 years of Dravanians to hang in there while they are killed in misdirected retaliation? The WoL has killed people for far less, and by the time we got there pretty much anyone who wanted to save him had tried and failed, Hraesvelgr included. If there was some hypothetical way to rehabilitate him without allowing him to cause further loss of life, that would be one thing, but in the absence of that letting him live would be the same as condemning all of Ishgard and a good portion of Dravania to die.

I don't agree that what he's doing is right, but I also don't think it's right for us to pick a side in this. Sure, the innocent Isgardians don't deserve to die, but then they should have found a way to work out their problems themselves, and in a way that would not further antagonize Dravanians. Handling it ourselves makes us look good, but what real reason does Midgarsormr have for trusting them at this point, other than simple faith? He is literally going on faith alone at this point, and not even faith in them, but in us. Essentially, what we've done is cement into everyone's minds the idea that if anything ever goes wrong again, they can call on us to fix it for them. The Scions, you'll recall, are generally not fond of meddling into others' affairs just for the heck of it. That's even the reason we moved to Mor Dhona.

I see people saying things like that the Warrior of Light is the Scions' gun to be pointed at what they deem a threat, but the Scions themselves have been used as guns by just about every nation, and often those nations were not even in the right, like Limsa Lominsa's conflict with the Kobolds and Sahagins. I think what was needed in this case was us providing solid assistance rather than doing all of the work, as was the case when we went for Praetorium. That was a joint effort and this was what was required this time too.

[Frederick22]

snip

All this hate to dragons, the dragoons, etc. All this is a culture imprigned on Ishgardians beacuse they learn that dragons are their enemie, why their enemie beacuse they have atacked and killed countless of people. All this beacuse of the war they have between them, so yea they learn to fear and hate dragons. But is not their fault

I think you are confusing trust with an eternal revengue with people who are innocent about something that happened 100 years ago. With the trust, yea I understand Hraesvelgr 's point. But Nidhogg is a different story, you cannot say that his actions arent guilty and it was on his "hands" to stop the war.

Both dragons know very well the life's spawn of humans, they just dont care