If you could kill off one of the scions...

[Tenkuu]

I don't like giving Minfillia a free pass when it comes to combat. The leaders of both Gridania and Limsa are both very powerful in their own right and Uldah has Raubahn. Also Alphinaud has shown he can hold his own if needed.

As a leader of a group based on fighting the primal threat she needs to have some capability of fighting herself since we can't always be there to save her. What if she get attacked by an assassin or gets kidnapped again? Dangerous things can happen to a leader and they need to be prepared as much as possible. Not saying she needs to be as powerful as the other Scions but she needs something. It also would help players respect her a little more. There's a reason the other leaders are looked more highly upon than her by the playerbase.

Funny you should bring that up, I actually have close to zero respect for Merlwyb and Nanamo, and Raubahn is, sadly, just following orders and otherwise leading the Flames more than anything else. Nanamo, as shown in her Tales from the Calamity, is whiny, bratty and generally speaking unable to see the big picture. This even affected her 2.55 decision. People like Raubahn and Thancred have both been very patient with her because they see her potential to be a real leader, but other than that, she's not exactly remarkable in any way. Merlwyb on the other hand has loose morals and could even be called a hypocrite, the only thing she really has going for her is that she's brave, but if it came down to trusting her, I don't really think that many people would. Kan-E-Senna is the only leader I truly respect because it is obvious that she is not only poised and respectful to all, but also strong-minded and speaking from the heart. She is a truly honest and kind woman, and the most capable of the three leaders.

As for Minfilia, there is no free pass involved here: she has no combat ability, period. Nanamo can't fight, Merlwyb's fighting abilities are obviously limited to her guns, and even Kan-E-Senna likely would not do good in a fight though she is a more than capable healer. Raubahn can fight but it's not his job to do so. Similarly, Minfilia knows what her job is, and she accomplishes it to perfection. She manages the Scions, doing what she can instead of worrying about what she can't do. The argument you're making is practically the equivalent of if you asked Thancred to be a Black Mage: it simply is not in their skillset for either of them. They both know what they're good at and they work hard on those things that their expertise is in. Also, Minfilia is not supposed to ever be fully on her own. Both the Waking Sands and Rising Stones have guards, and on outings Thancred pretty much appoints himself her personal guard.

[snip]
Your employees think you are boring and worthless but in reality if you weren't doing the tedious work of oiling the cogs and making sure they were running smooth the whole thing would collapse.

Exactly. Being a leader may look like just sitting on your ass doing nothing to others, but without a leader, everything would fall into chaos. The leader coordinates every task so that they can fit together properly and resources can be used efficiently. It isn't work that you would want to be doing either. The Scions are already under a lot of stress, as evidenced by Thancred's emotional breakdown in 2.0, and they're not even doing half the work that Minfilia is. They could not be handling anymore than they currently have on their plates, and Minfilia knows this, so she only assigns them missions relevant to their current tasks and responsibilities.

You very well that wast Alphinau's full fault, even if he think it was ortherside. Yes he had control over the Crystal Braves but Minfilia was the leader. If Alphinau couldnt see what was happening, it was her resposability to let it happened and didnt see anything. I know, she had full trust on him, but thats not how a leader acts I think, you need to always check what orthers are doing, just in case there is flaw.

Except that it's already been explained to you before, by myself and others, that Minfilia is just a name on a piece of paper as far as the Braves are concerned. She has absolutely no responsibility or control over them, that's Alphinaud's job. You might even recall Alphinaud saying himself that he would be the one to handle them so as not to put more undue pressure on Minfilia. So no, the Braves were never Minfilia's responsibility, they were entirely Alphinaud's. Not that anyone is saying he is fully at fault for their betrayal, but he was still the one responsible for them.

[Tenkuu]

Minfilia isn't a favourite character of mine. I just think her background gives her really exciting potential to shine as something that isn't a scholar or a soldier. We have heaps of scholars and soldiers. A character who's strengths lie in resourcefulness and misdirection combined with excellent planning skills has some really interesting possibility for story development. The other Scions generally don't fall into that category.

Well, judging by Thancred's handling of Nanamo when he was her advisor and his general smooth-talking ways, I'd say (well-intended) misdirection is definitely one of his talents too. One thing I've consistently noticed about Thancred is his ability to fit into pretty much any role in any given situation, whether it be a mission or the hilarious mess he got himself into with his 5 women at Rising Stones. His moods change as quickly and easily as his facial expressions. Generally speaking he is very versatile.

Heres the problem with Minifilia, I honestly can not think of one significant thing she has done that effects the plot. She's provided a very basic level of leadership and management to the Scions, but as our stand in, Alpinaud has had a greater impact on the plot then she has had. As the leader of a paramilitary organization, she needs to have some level of combat skills and some level of strategy. Sure, she provides a focal point for getting people together and getting them to talk, but honestly, the WoL would be able to do that if we weren't the silent hero.

We have no such ability. Not so much the getting people together part, but rather the leader's skills that Minfilia has. We could never manage the Scions, even in HW we leave that up to Alphinaud who is both a diplomat and an intellect. Her leadership is not at all basic: she has connections in and agreements with several countries, not to mention the many Scions (minor and major) she manages by sending them out on various missions. Any intelligence that is gathered by others is coordinated by her. Never forget that. Also, don't fail to notice how in HW we are essentially just chickens with our heads cut off running around all over the place.

[Tenkuu]

... because that observation couldn't have been made by anyone else who knows about the Echo and the Ascians, right?

Just how many people do you think there are who know about the Echo? Just because we have a not-even-intimate knowledge of it (and mostly only as a result of possessing it) doesn't mean we can even remotely begin to analyze it. Similarly for all of the Scions, the Echo is still a mostly mysterious ability with many unexplained facets. No one would have even thought to link the Ascians to the Echo until very recently. It's important to remember that outside of our small group, the Scions, no one really knows anything about the Echo.

Hell, I don't even consider her a wholly competent manager, since even if you want to place the blame for the Crystal Braves solely on Alphinaud Thancred still got possessed under her watch, partially thanks to overworking himself. As manager, it should have been Minfilia's duty to make sure he wasn't working himself to exhaustion. It almost led to untold destruction and the conquest of Eorzea.

Much as I love Thancred, even I know that he is the only one responsible for his possession by Lahabrea. Much as the other Scions like to blame themselves, looking back and thinking on what they could have done better, ultimately it was Thancred who took too much upon himself while giving to everyone the impression that he was handling it all. Given his dialogue after the 2.0 endgame, it's even hinted that he likely used himself as bait and ended up falling into their trap. As for it being Minfilia's responsibility? Only on a very superficial level, and even then she acknowledges that she should have seen it coming.

"But we're really busy, and there's not enough people..."

That's no excuse. Being the manager (leader) means making the hard choices and sometimes making sacrifices, up to and including sidelining your best agents so they don't break down from stress, consequences be damned.

Actually, yes it is. Thancred is his own man, he was the one who chose to put on a brave face while taking on many assignments. Also, name one manager who hasn't ever screwed up. There were a lot of things going on with you the new recruit and Primals popping up all over the place and god only knows what other investigations she had the other (minor) Scions undertake. She trusted Thancred, trusted both his strength, his skills and that he was capable of managing himself. So sure, she has to make tough decisions, but one of those tough decisions was probably to not micro-manage Thancred which, in all honesty, might have actually made him feel worse about himself.

[Frederick22]

Except that it's already been explained to you before, by myself and others, that Minfilia is just a name on a piece of paper as far as the Braves are concerned. She has absolutely no responsibility or control over them, that's Alphinaud's job. You might even recall Alphinaud saying himself that he would be the one to handle them so as not to put more undue pressure on Minfilia. So no, the Braves were never Minfilia's responsibility, they were entirely Alphinaud's. Not that anyone is saying he is fully at fault for their betrayal, but he was still the one responsible for them.

Actually no one did it, just minor details, just you. My mistake was that I thought that the title "Antecedent" she had was beacuse she was the leader of the Scions, but no its a different thing.


With hole respect, and im not tring anything, just a little offtopic question.
Why do you refuse on everything people says? There absolutly nothing you agreed with?

You sound like everything you said must be correct and the rest are mistaken.
I admit it, I made mistakes and no I'm not big lore wise guy, maybe I barely know just a little. But honeslty by the way you have written so far in all your comments, it seems that you believe you know everything.

[Cilia]

Just how many people do you think there are who know about the Echo? Just because we have a not-even-intimate knowledge of it (and mostly only as a result of possessing it) doesn't mean we can even remotely begin to analyze it. Similarly for all of the Scions, the Echo is still a mostly mysterious ability with many unexplained facets. No one would have even thought to link the Ascians to the Echo until very recently. It's important to remember that outside of our small group, the Scions, no one really knows anything about the Echo.

We were there and had all the knowledge and more experience than Minfilia. Fewer contacts, but more experience.

It doesn't take a genius intellect to realize the Sahagin Chief was talking about the Ascians (heavily implied to be Elidibus himself) and that whatever they gave him made said Chief rather like the Ascians. Yet, Leviathan pretty much ate said Chief. That being the case, logically it should be possible to kill an Ascian... somehow.

The rest of it is R&D done largely by Urianger and Moenbryda, respectively.

Much as I love Thancred, even I know that he is the only one responsible for his possession by Lahabrea. Much as the other Scions like to blame themselves, looking back and thinking on what they could have done better, ultimately it was Thancred who took too much upon himself while giving to everyone the impression that he was handling it all. Given his dialogue after the 2.0 endgame, it's even hinted that he likely used himself as bait and ended up falling into their trap. As for it being Minfilia's responsibility? Only on a very superficial level, and even then she acknowledges that she should have seen it coming.

Yes, Thancred was pushing himself too far and making it look like he was okay. If Minfilia were really that good of a manager, she should have been able to see through this - and she did, but did nothing about it. That is why I hold it against her. She knew he was pushing it too far, and rather than hurt Thancred's feelings and keep him grounded for a short time, she allowed him to continue overworking himself because "there's not enough people, and we're really busy..."

Is Minfilia only superficially responsible? If you frame it that way, I suppose. If you want to frame it that way she is only superficially responsible for most things the Scions achieve, though, which is what I've been saying all along. You gotta take the bad with the good.

Actually, [being overworked and understaffed] is [a valid excuse]. Thancred is his own man, he was the one who chose to put on a brave face while taking on many assignments. Also, name one manager who hasn't ever screwed up. There were a lot of things going on with you the new recruit and Primals popping up all over the place and god only knows what other investigations she had the other (minor) Scions undertake. She trusted Thancred, trusted both his strength, his skills and that he was capable of managing himself. So sure, she has to make tough decisions, but one of those tough decisions was probably to not micro-manage Thancred which, in all honesty, might have actually made him feel worse about himself.

No, it's not. Responsible adults don't make excuses.

Thancred is partially responsible, but so is Minfilia. I don't hold either of them fully responsible, and honestly, Ascian possession was an unknown factor. That said, we were told that Thancred was more vulnerable as a result of being overworked and stressed. As manager, Minfilia is in some part responsible for it - how much personally depends, but being responsible for it, she should have done something about it and did not. So should Thancred, I admit that, but if you want Minfilia's job to be manager she should know when to put her foot down. That's part of being the manager too.

She micromanaged us plenty (e.g. sending all the Archons with us on the Ramuh mission, after we had more than proved we were more than capable of resolving conflicts with minimal assistance). Why should Thancred have it any differently?

Everyone screws up - it happens all the time. When you hold the fate of the world in your hands, though, the margin for error is so small as to be nearly nonexistent. You don't get to say "Well, we were overworked and understaffed, so one of my best agents overworked himself and got possessed by a demon-man and blew up a city. I coulda stopped him, but well... we were overworked and understaffed, so it's not my fault."

[Belhi]

We were there and had all the knowledge and more experience than Minfilia. Fewer contacts, but more experience.

It doesn't take a genius intellect to realize the Sahagin Chief was talking about the Ascians (heavily implied to be Elidibus himself) and that whatever they gave him made said Chief rather like the Ascians. Yet, Leviathan pretty much ate said Chief. That being the case, logically it should be possible to kill an Ascian... somehow.

The rest of it is R&D done largely by Urianger and Moenbryda, respectively.

I wouldn't say we are more experience when it comes to the echo. Not only does Minfilia have it but she has been gathering people with the echo and studying it since she was 18. Her role pre calamity was to gather and train echo users. That was the whole point of the path of the twelve.

Further, her discovery wasn't on how to kill the Ascians us much as allow us to deduce the nature of Ascian immortality. Considering our characters are just adventurers she is almost certainly better studied in the nature of the soul.

Yes perhaps someone else could have deduced it but it was Minfilia that did the deduction and its clearly not something anyone else had cottoned on to at that point. From this deduction and Urianger's observation of Ramuh's dissipating 'soul' a method to kill the Ascians was devised.

[Tenkuu]

Actually no one did it, just minor details, just you. My mistake was that I thought that the title "Antecedent" she had was beacuse she was the leader of the Scions, but no its a different thing.


With hole respect, and im not tring anything, just a little offtopic question.
Why do you refuse on everything people says? There absolutly nothing you agreed with?

You sound like everything you said must be correct and the rest are mistaken.
I admit it, I made mistakes and no I'm not big lore wise guy, maybe I barely know just a little. But honeslty by the way you have written so far in all your comments, it seems that you believe you know everything.

Not true, I looked at previous pages since my last replies, and another person and myself had *both* explained to you that Minfilia has no responsibility for the Braves, and in detail no less. You should make a habit of looking at past replies yourself to make sure you don't miss anything.

Actually, you *are* being disrespectful. I have absolutely no obligation to you to agree with the things you say, and quite frankly, since you value honesty so much, in some of them you make a fool of yourself but I still reply respectfully and ignore the various nonsensical parts. I don't know a lot of things which is why I like to ask questions and theorize to get to the bottom of things. The lore of this game fascinates me, both the parts related to 1.0 and 2.0. 3.0, generally speaking, has been a disappointment, but at least 3.1 more than made up for it with Thancred's return.

I agree with various people and I'm even really interested in their theories when they seem to make sense, you're just one of the people who more often does than not does not say anything that interests me.

[Tenkuu]

We were there and had all the knowledge and more experience than Minfilia. Fewer contacts, but more experience.

That's just ridiculous. All the knowledge you have comes from Minfilia, you'll remember, and she has several more years of both knowledge *and* experience than your character does, going as far back to even before she founded the Path of the Twelve. Don't forget that those "contacts" included the Circle of Knowing before the two organizations merged, and they are Sharlayan experts.

It doesn't take a genius intellect to realize the Sahagin Chief was talking about the Ascians (heavily implied to be Elidibus himself) and that whatever they gave him made said Chief rather like the Ascians. Yet, Leviathan pretty much ate said Chief. That being the case, logically it should be possible to kill an Ascian... somehow.

Because the Ascians are the only evil we've come across? Even if that part were obvious though, there was still a lot to figure out about the Echo itself. Also, you're drawing these conclusions after the fact and when you've had quite a lot of time to consider these events. Minfilia, lore-wise, did not take particularly long to come to her conclusions either, and of the Scions, she is the only one with the Echo (aside from your character), and the only one with not only the means but also the true reasons to investigate the Echo. She is the one with the experience and understanding of what the Echo feels like. Much as the Circle of Knowing has been helping her since they've known each other, they still are not privvy to much knowledge about the Echo, recognizing mostly its manifestations and not understanding much else about it.

The rest of it is R&D done largely by Urianger and Moenbryda, respectively.*

Urianger, Moenbryda *and* Minfilia. Don't forget that this research of theirs depends heavily on her experience and knowledge of the Echo.

Yes, Thancred was pushing himself too far and making it look like he was okay. If Minfilia were really that good of a manager, she should have been able to see through this - and she did, but did nothing about it. That is why I hold it against her. She knew he was pushing it too far, and rather than hurt Thancred's feelings and keep him grounded for a short time, she allowed him to continue overworking himself because "there's not enough people, and we're really busy..."

Actually, Minfilia herself feels inadequate at times, this has been a major theme of 2.0, and she has even confided in you about it. However, she is not responsible for Thancred's life. She cares about him and considers him as a brother, but she is by no means responsible for the choices he makes nor can she, for that matter, dictate his decisions. Consider what *would* have happened if she had caught it enough to intervene in a more meaningful way: Thancred is a pretty determined person who felt like he wasn't doing enough for the group, he would have found his own ways of investigating what he wanted as a wish to contribute more, but it would have been even more on the down-low than it already was, and at least Minfilia and Alphinaud both knew what he was up to this way. It wasn't about hurting Thancred's feelings, it was about how you don't criticize someone who's already in the dumps because it is very likely to lead to exactly the same emotional breakdown that he had anyway. You don't tell a person with depression that they're worthless, for example.

Is Minfilia only superficially responsible? If you frame it that way, I suppose. If you want to frame it that way she is only superficially responsible for most things the Scions achieve, though, which is what I've been saying all along. You gotta take the bad with the good.

She does take the bad with the good in every single thing that happens in their group. Every victory is taken with a grain of salt. Also, remember that the way Thancred himself explains it, he knew the risks he was taking but still did whatever it was that he did that got him into this situation. Those are risks he likely would have taken regardless of whether he'd been asked to investigate the Ascians or not, once the thought had been placed in his head that they were dangerous to his friends.

No, it's not. Responsible adults don't make excuses.

It is, because being overworked and understaffed is a reality in pretty much every business. It happens, and when it does, you have to deal with it, and there are more than one way to do so. As such, it's not an excuse, but a reason, and a very valid one at that.

Thancred is partially responsible, but so is Minfilia. I don't hold either of them fully responsible, and honestly, Ascian possession was an unknown factor. That said, we were told that Thancred was more vulnerable as a result of being overworked and stressed. As manager, Minfilia is in some part responsible for it - how much personally depends, but being responsible for it, she should have done something about it and did not. So should Thancred, I admit that, but if you want Minfilia's job to be manager she should know when to put her foot down. That's part of being the manager too.

Actually, I'm unclear on whether Minfilia had this knowledge before making her little call to the Students of Baldesion on her linkpearl. She talks to us about it as if it's something she's known all along, not something she just learned. Either way, there are various points in the game at which you can see Thancred, in the Waking Sands, wearing the dark crystal necklace, so either they were all so busy and barely seeing each other (if at all) to the point that it went unnoticed, or Minfilia did notice it but took no particular note of it. Or, perhaps less likely in a way but more logical if you think about it, maybe Thancred simply did not wear it around them. Also, Minfilia does take responsibility for what happened to Thancred, and she could not have lived with herself had we been unable to save him from Lahabrea.

She micromanaged us plenty (e.g. sending all the Archons with us on the Ramuh mission, after we had more than proved we were more than capable of resolving conflicts with minimal assistance). Why should Thancred have it any differently?

Thancred is a long-time member of both the Scions and the Circle of Knowing, and she explains to you why she did not micromanage him (just before she asks you to save him): she had complete faith in his skills and abilities. You, on the other hand, are a person that Minfilia either has only recently met (ie the rookie, as a new 2.0 or non-legacy 1.0 player) or remembers but who only conducted small investigations as a member of the Path of the Twelve, so generally speaking, she would not remember you as being anything more remarkable than one of the many warriors of light who fought at Carteneau. The other Scions don't remember you if you are a legacy player. They feel like something is familiar about you but can't place it, so to them you're still just a newbie in need of supervision. Either way, Minfilia can't treat you like you are some reliable expert because for one thing, you do not know that much about the Echo even as a former member of the Path of the Twelve, and for another, the other Scions would not understand this full trust and complete lack of supervision that she would be placing on a complete newbie. In short, there is absolutely no way for Minfilia to treat you as if you were a long-time member of the group, and also no real reason for her to have complete faith in your abilities as she does in the other Scions, and especially in Thancred whom she has known since she was a child.

Everyone screws up - it happens all the time. When you hold the fate of the world in your hands, though, the margin for error is so small as to be nearly nonexistent. You don't get to say "Well, we were overworked and understaffed, so one of my best agents overworked himself and got possessed by a demon-man and blew up a city. I coulda stopped him, but well... we were overworked and understaffed, so it's not my fault."

Exactly, it happens, and it did happen in this case. It isn't as if the Scions hadn't, to their knowledge, been taking every possible precaution, but they also acknowledged the need to take risks, and as such Alphinaud's idea of investigating the Ascians was welcomed, and not only that, it was delegated to their most reliable Scion, Thancred. That's another thing worth mentioning btw: Alphinaud asked Thancred to investigate the Ascians, he didn't volunteer for this assignment. If anything, in this particular situation, Alphinaud would be more to blame than Minfilia. Minfilia never does pretend that it's not her fault, but in actuality, she blames herself far more than she should, as does Alphinaud for the Braves' betrayal. It's part of being a good leader, feeling responsible even for the little things that can go wrong.


EDIT: In the cutscene of the quest where you are first getting sent off to investigate how to fight Titan, all of the Scions including Thancred attend that meeting and Thancred is wearing the necklace. It's interesting to note that during the whole cutscene, he seems much more somber than usual. That necklace can also be seen on him as early as immediately after you take the quest to investigate the Sylphs, though I can't tell whether this was a mistake or not.