If you could kill off one of the scions...

[Tenkuu]

The Monetarists can't off Nanamo because she's a beloved figure. No other reason. Our reputation was a factor, but there was enough power to keep the city on lockdown and have the truth suppressed to the point nobody really knew what happened outside hushed rumors.

Not only because she's a beloved figure, it's also because they need the monarchy. They need things to not change. Technically speaking they certainly did suppress the truth, not so sure about the lockdown, but they knew very well that there would be a civil war if they tried too much against us. Everyone already seemed to know that the Warrior of Light and their allies attended a banquet held in their honor, after all.

I didn't mind not having the Scions around, but the first act of Heavensward (up to Nidhogg's defeat) was rather long and done entirely in recompense for Ishgard sheltering us. Our rescue attempt then leads into the second act, which is done entirely because we're the Scions and primal slaying is our MO.

To me it just felt like yeah, sure, we're helping them for helping us, but we're kinda not minding our own business at the same time. And yes, we're the Scions and we slay Primals, but we were down to literally two combatants and one secretary, and only of those combatants was doing any real fighting, not to mention we have none of the intelligence that the other Scions provided for us in the past, nor did we care. It was literally a disorganized mess.

Nidhogg's rage is understandable, but it's the fact that he's pointing it at people undeserving of it that puts him in the wrong. The people who wronged him he either killed or are long dead, and the Dragonsong War is not a war meant to be won - it's an eternal punishment upon Isghard, even though modern Ishgardians are lied to as to why they're fighting their war against the Dravanian Horde. It's not that his fury is wrong, but that it's entirely misplaced, and he has no intention of ever giving it up. Thus, in order to save countless lives and save countless more from becoming enslaved to Nidhogg's vengeance, we put him down.

You can argue that, but then again, from his point of view, there's nothing to actually redeem Ishgard either: they still have dragoons, they still hunt down dragons either for sport or to prove themselves, and they're still hiding the truth to make themselves look good. From Nidhogg's point of view, everyone is equally guilty because he views them as one people. Also, it's not as if Nidhogg would actually be aware that most Ishgardians don't have a clue about the war against the Dravanians. I don't even think Hraesvelgr knew, for that matter.

Yes, dragon lifetimes are far longer than that of a mortal's, but that excuse wore very thin. If it's Thordan and his Knights Twelve who wronged you, and they're dead, why do you need to continue exacting vengeance upon their children, and their children's children, for eternity?

It isn't really an excuse. In fact, it's akin to wanting the murderer of your sister to rot in jail for the rest of his life (and yours). As I mentioned above, I believe Nidhogg views the Ishgardians as one people, all responsible for the same sin. After all, if one Ishgardian can do it, why couldn't they all? After having trusted Ishgardians once and being betrayed horribly, why would he not think that he can't trust any Ishgardian ever again and that they would just as soon do it again?

[Frederick22]

snip

All this hate to dragons, the dragoons, etc. All this is a culture imprigned on Ishgardians beacuse they learn that dragons are their enemie, why their enemie beacuse they have atacked and killed countless of people. All this beacuse of the war they have between them, so yea they learn to fear and hate dragons. But is not their fault

I think you are confusing trust with an eternal revengue with people who are innocent about something that happened 100 years ago. With the trust, yea I understand Hraesvelgr 's point. But Nidhogg is a different story, you cannot say that his actions arent guilty and it was on his "hands" to stop the war.

Both dragons know very well the life's spawn of humans, they just dont care

[Tenkuu]

All this hate to dragons, the dragoons, etc. All this is a culture imprigned on Ishgardians beacuse they learn that dragons are their enemie, why their enemie beacuse they have atacked and killed countless of people. All this beacuse of the war they have between them, so yea they learn to fear and hate dragons. But is not their fault

I think you are confusing trust with an eternal revengue with people who are innocent about something that happened 100 years ago. With the trust, yea I understand Hraesvelgr 's point. But Nidhogg is a different story, you cannot say that his actions arent guilty and it was on his "hands" to stop the war.

Both dragons know very well the life's spawn of humans, they just dont care

I'm not really sure what part of what I've said you're quoting, but here goes. Exactly, Isgardians are taught ignorance and lies. Even so, it should be obvious to them that by continuing to kill dragons, they're not exactly fomenting positive relationships with them. So then, how is that supposed to redeem them in the eyes of any Dravanian? The Ishgardians have never looked for a solution the way the Scions did, instead they simply painted themselves as victims and resigned themselves to eternally go "woe is me".

What reason did Nidhogg have to want to stop a war that, in his eyes, he did not begin nor was responsible for? To him, the Ishgardians are responsible for everything, both the initial killing of his sister and the perpetuation of a tradition of killing dragons.

Nidhogg does not feel that any Ishgardians deserve to live because he believes them all untrustworthy and more than capable of repeating a betrayal if they were to be trusted again.

Tenku, my apologies for this question, Did you watch the cutscenes of 3.0?

Estinien, Hraesvelgr and Middy made clear that Nidhogg was beyong reasoning and that his vengeance was insatiable. Yes, Nidhogg was the first one to find out that his sister was dead, Hraesvelgr told us that

I dont think Midgarsormr was meaning that he will join the dragonsong war. He pretty much is on a neutral state.

Keeper of the Lake is 2.0 content, not 3.0, and Midgarsormr made clear at the time that he was reviving to join the chorus begun by his child. Yes, I've seen all of the cutscenes, the story is much more important to me than the quests themselves. I'm not saying that Nidhogg is entirely in the right btw, I'm just arguing that I can definitely see it from his point of view.

[Cilia]

Snip

Not going to get into the Ul'dah debacle, cuz that's ancient history and I don't care for how it was resolved anyway.

While we are down to two combatants and a secretary (one combatant of whom is prestigious but not exceptionally gifted), it's still the Scions' MO to kill primals. That is the one thing people can always count on us to do, no matter the situation - rain, shine, sleet, or snow, we will quash any primal that shows up because of how dangerous they are. Preventing summoning is a more favorable option, but we can't always succeed at that. Even with only Alphinaud and Tataru (and later Y'shtola as well as Cid, who may as well be an honorary Scion at this point), we still fulfilled our mission.

On Nidhogg, yes, he does not see Ishgard for the people within it but only as an entity that has wronged him, and thus he carries out his eternal vengeance. It is this entire viewpoint that is fundamentally flawed - 99.9% of modern Ishgardians are lied to in regards to why they're in an eternal war with the Horde. Even if they are ignorant as to why they're fighting the war, you can't really blame them when the only options are to fight and kill or death by dragons (or the third option, become a heretic and probably a dragon yourself). If the Ishgardians don't know the real reason behind the war, how can they possibly learn from Thordan's sin?! This is the real reason Midgardsormr states he is going to "join in the chorus" - he wants Ishgard to learn and grow beyond Thordan's mistakes, and offers them the chance to do so now that they are armed with the truth.

Nidhogg? Nope, he just wants them to suffer more. Forever. What he is attacking is not individuals, but Ishgard as a nation - it's the concept of the country that offends him, not any individuals or particular aspects of it. Nidhogg has no interest in peace, or getting Ishgard to learn from Thordan's mistakes, or anything beyond his vengeance. No matter how many lives, mortal and dragon alike, are consumed, he will never stop. While this is understandable, it's not quite relatable, and in no way is it justifiable. He does not want to win the war - he just wants Ishgard to suffer. Forever. Let me stress that: FOREVER. Estinien acknowledges that Nidhogg could have won the war pretty much any time he wanted to, but he has no interest in winning so that more Ishgardians might suffer his wrath. It's a war on Ishgard's spirit, the very concept of Ishgard, not any one person or anything that makes up the whole.

Putting aside the fact Nidhogg never trusted the Ishgardians in the first place, it's not quite the same as seeing your sister's murderer thrown in jail for the rest of their life. It's like exsanguinating said murderer to the point of unconsciousness, then giving them a blood transfusion so you can do it again for as long as you like. Then doing it to said murderer's spouse and children. Then their children, and so forth. It's sadism of the highest caliber, and there is no "justice" in that.

Why should the dragons put their faith in men and believe there is good in them after Thordan's betrayal? What proof do they have it won't happen again? There is none - that's why it's called faith. Even without proof, you simply believe.

[Tenkuu]

While we are down to two combatants and a secretary (one combatant of whom is prestigious but not exceptionally gifted), it's still the Scions' MO to kill primals. That is the one thing people can always count on us to do, no matter the situation - rain, shine, sleet, or snow, we will quash any primal that shows up because of how dangerous they are. Preventing summoning is a more favorable option, but we can't always succeed at that. Even with only Alphinaud and Tataru (and later Y'shtola as well as Cid, who may as well be an honorary Scion at this point), we still fulfilled our mission.

Oh, I absolutely agree that it's the Scions' MO to kill Primals, but they also don't tend to dip their fingers into others' pies without good reason. Given the fact that Primals appeared in Ishgard when we showed up, can we honestly claim that we're not in some way the cause for those Primals? Ie, doing what the Scions are very reluctant to do, which is to involve ourselves in every random cause, are we not in a way exacerbating the situation? Y'shtola said it best in 2.0: the beast tribes generally summon their Primals not for shits and giggles, but because they feel threatened, and we're often the cause of this feeling of fear. In other words, we're not always in the right in interfering.

On Nidhogg, yes, he does not see Ishgard for the people within it but only as an entity that has wronged him, and thus he carries out his eternal vengeance. It is this entire viewpoint that is fundamentally flawed - 99.9% of modern Ishgardians are lied to in regards to why they're in an eternal war with the Horde. Even if they are ignorant as to why they're fighting the war, you can't really blame them when the only options are to fight and kill or death by dragons (or the third option, become a heretic and probably a dragon yourself). If the Ishgardians don't know the real reason behind the war, how can they possibly learn from Thordan's sin?! This is the real reason Midgardsormr states he is going to "join in the chorus" - he wants Ishgard to learn and grow beyond Thordan's mistakes, and offers them the chance to do so now that they are armed with the truth.

Actually, Midgarsormr in 2.0 gives no indication of feeling that his son is in the wrong. I don't know whether this is poor writing, bad planning, or an honest-to-god complete change of heart, but his opinion of men was truly no better than Nidhogg's opinion of Ishgardians in 2.0. Also, I'm not saying that the Ishgardians should be blamed for Nidhogg's war, but rather that they've never attempted to figure out, on their own, what they could possibly do to try to end the war. Their only thought has ever been that utterly destroying their enemy would protect them, and no one until the Warrior of Light and Alphinaud come along had even made any efforts for peace since Saint Shiva. Is that really normal? It's no wonder that Thordan sees us as some kind of supernatural monster when we've been the only ones to challenge the status quo and actually *do* something.

And if you want to claim that the Echo and Blessing of Light made us so special that only we could handle it, there are two arguments that can be made against that: the first and most obvious one is that we obviously don't operate under the Blessing of Light for most of 3.0. The second would be that without said blessing, we really did nothing all that special and the ones who did most of the leg work were Alphinaud with his diplomacy, Ysayle with her understanding of dragons, and Cid with his technology that allowed us to go where we needed to be. You could even bring up a third argument based on the second: the Warrior of Light is not much without their allies, and in terms of numbers, the Ishgardians can definitely rally together all of their dragoons.

Nidhogg? Nope, he just wants them to suffer more. Forever. What he is attacking is not individuals, but Ishgard as a nation - it's the concept of the country that offends him, not any individuals or particular aspects of it. Nidhogg has no interest in peace, or getting Ishgard to learn from Thordan's mistakes, or anything beyond his vengeance. No matter how many lives, mortal and dragon alike, are consumed, he will never stop. While this is understandable, it's not quite relatable, and in no way is it justifiable. He does not want to win the war - he just wants Ishgard to suffer. Forever. Let me stress that: FOREVER. Estinien acknowledges that Nidhogg could have won the war pretty much any time he wanted to, but he has no interest in winning so that more Ishgardians might suffer his wrath. It's a war on Ishgard's spirit, the very concept of Ishgard, not any one person or anything that makes up the whole.

Yup, Nidhogg sees the whole of Ishgard as one. But again, Nidhogg has no real reason to believe in Ishgardians or even *want* to give them a chance. From his point of view, as far as he knows, Ishgard deserves to suffer a fate worse than death. Again, I don't agree that all Ishgardians deserve to die either, but that is precisely Nidhogg's point of view, and it's easy to understand if you consider both his obvious PTSD and his previous attitude that trusting the Ishgardians was a mistake to begin with. To him, he's just been proven right when they murder his sister.

Putting aside the fact Nidhogg never trusted the Ishgardians in the first place, it's not quite the same as seeing your sister's murderer thrown in jail for the rest of their life. It's like exsanguinating said murderer to the point of unconsciousness, then giving them a blood transfusion so you can do it again for as long as you like. Then doing it to said murderer's spouse and children. Then their children, and so forth. It's sadism of the highest caliber, and there is no "justice" in that.

No, it's not justice, and those Ishgardians don't deserve to die for their ancestors' sins. However, they also have never put forth any real effort to do anything about the whole situation themselves, and that is my main beef with Ishgardians. They live a culture of resignation and dependence upon authority. Actually, that's a recurrent theme in Hydaelyn from what I can see, but nowhere do I see it more strongly than in Ishgard.

Why should the dragons put their faith in men and believe there is good in them after Thordan's betrayal? What proof do they have it won't happen again? There is none - that's why it's called faith. Even without proof, you simply believe.

True, but then again believing is not easy, and it has no logical basis. It's about as logical as the beastmen's faith in their Primals, and we all know where that got us. Either way, my point is that the Ishgardians themselves have done fairly nothing to help themselves. There are those like Estinien, Haurchefant and Aymeric who've put themselves forth and aided the Warrior of Light, but otherwise, we have every reason to believe that the next time a problem comes up, we'll be called in to fix it again. So has a lesson really been learned? We'll find out in future patches, I suppose.

[Tenkuu]

I think the story made it clear that Nidhogg's was beyond reasoning, and his vengeance was insatiable, even by dragon standards.

I don't remember whether this was mentioned, but I'm beginning to think Nidhogg must have been the one to discover Ratatoskr's body. That would certainly explain a lot of his rage.

Even Nidhogg's own father pretty much deems him a lost cause that has gone completely off the deep end.

This might be true now, but if you remember Keeper's Lake, Midgarsormr had every intention upon awakening of joining the chorus. Later on as he continues to tag along with you, he mentions several times that they (the dragons) can't be stopped and that a dragon's memory works very differently from a human's, and that they will never forget what happened.

[Frederick22]

snip

Estinien, Hraesvelgr and Middy made clear that Nidhogg was beyong reasoning and that his vengeance was insatiable. Yes, Nidhogg was the first one to find out that his sister was dead, Hraesvelgr told us that

I dont think Midgarsormr was meaning that he will join the dragonsong war. He pretty much is on a neutral state.

[Cilia]

To correct myself, Midgardsormr never says he wants to stop the war; he simply refuses trying to do so because of the Ishgardians' blindness to their sin. It's not until you restore the Blessing of Light from his suppression that he believes there's a real chance for peace between man and dragon.

At the same time, he makes no indication that he's going to join Nidhogg, especially if you compare the Japanese and English dialogue. He simply states that he awoke in response to Nidhogg's call. While his English dialogue implies he's going to join the battle, in the Japanese script he never says anything of the sort and only speaks as if Nidhogg (the child in question) and his Horde are going to fight Ishgard.

Either way, he implicitly condemns Nidhogg's inability to let go of his hatred after he possesses Estinien to resurrect himself, so obviously Midgardsormr doesn't think that's kosher. Maybe it was, but he has decided to give Ishgard a chance even despite their grievous sins because he is rational enough to recognize the modern Ishgardians are not Thordan and thus do not deserve to suffer for his sins now that they know the truth and are trying to make up for it. Nidhogg... not so much. He hates Ishgard so much that he possessed a guy from beyond the grave and reconstituted his body though sheer hatred. Even Midgardsormr, Wyrmking and Magical Space Dragon, cannot condone this, which is why he warns Ishgard that Nidhogg will be back.

And, because Nidhogg does not recognize that the modern citizens of Ishgard are not responsible for Thordan's sin, or otherwise doesn't care, he will wage eternal war on them to see them suffer forever. No other reason. Compare Midgardsormr (who is willing to give them a chance) and Hraesvelgr (who doesn't care for the most part, though he does bring Ysayle to Azys Lla so maybe he had a change of heart).

Understandable? I... guess. Relatable? Hard. Justifiable? Not in the slightest.

Now, the problem is the time difference between man and dragon. Throughout the story, Hraesvelgr and Midgardsormr treat the incident with Thordan and his Knights Twelve as if it were yesterday to them. Fair enough, but Thordan and half the Knights were killed in recompense (already an unfair exchange if you follow the "eye for an eye" philosophy). Ishgard still stands, but the people who actually wronged the dragons are long dead. Midgardsormr says that the people of Ishgard have sinned, are blind to their sin, and want to sin yet again, but that's an extremely unfair judgment to make when even the Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights and the Azure Dragoon do not know the truth and are not in on the "Knights of the Round" plan. Remember that openly questioning the Church gets you branded a heretic, and that the only fate for heretics is death, and you'll understand why people don't question the Church's... embellished version of the story. (Hell, Estinien did have his doubts, he just never voiced them.)

So again, it comes back to the fact that Nidhogg hates the very concept of Ishgard and has no intention of actually winning the war that makes it necessary to put him down. To save the countless lives that would be consumed by his unyielding hatred, and for all the ignorant, innocent people he shamelessly killed... I did not feel good about it, but it had to be done and must be done once more. So be it.

[Tenkuu]

To correct myself, Midgardsormr never says he wants to stop the war; he simply refuses trying to do so because of the Ishgardians' blindness to their sin. It's not until you restore the Blessing of Light from his suppression that he believes there's a real chance for peace between man and dragon.

I agree, which is why I think there's either some discrepancy or it was perhaps poorly written or unclear. Either way, I don't think it's wrong for him to change his opinion, but it did seem to come a bit out of left field, so to speak.

At the same time, he makes no indication that he's going to join Nidhogg, especially if you compare the Japanese and English dialogue. He simply states that he awoke in response to Nidhogg's call. While his English dialogue implies he's going to join the battle, in the Japanese script he never says anything of the sort and only speaks as if Nidhogg (the child in question) and his Horde are going to fight Ishgard.

Actually, there are some pretty specific parts that indicate a hatred of Ishgardians corresponding exactly to Nidhogg's, as well as that he intends to react accordingly:

"Their destination is Ishgard, home of the people who have forgotten fear and have sinned."
"This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end."
"And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars."
"I have awoken to answer to the roar for it was not me who roared, but one of my seven sons."
"As Ishgard doesn't want to repent, my child and their people will not delay the retribution. The land shall burn, their people shall die, the justice will be done."
"However, you're a human. Like people of Ishgard, you're capable of a foolish crime. Do not think I spare your life for nothing."

His general attitude is implicitly in agreement with the warmongering dragons as of 2.0.

Either way, he implicitly condemns Nidhogg's inability to let go of his hatred after he possesses Estinien to resurrect himself, so obviously Midgardsormr doesn't think that's kosher. Maybe it was, but he has decided to give Ishgard a chance even despite their grievous sins because he is rational enough to recognize the modern Ishgardians are not Thordan and thus do not deserve to suffer for his sins now that they know the truth and are trying to make up for it. Nidhogg... not so much. He hates Ishgard so much that he possessed a guy from beyond the grave and reconstituted his body though sheer hatred. Even Midgardsormr, Wyrmking and Magical Space Dragon, cannot condone this, which is why he warns Ishgard that Nidhogg will be back.

At that point, and after seeing that Nidhogg would go so far as to possess someone to resurrect himself, yes, then he thinks it's gone too far, which is pretty accurate. If you want to say that Midgarsormr was fair to both Nidhogg and the Ishgardians, then I agree completely. My point was merely to question whether the Ishgardians actually deserve that faith or not, ie we definitely deserve it more.

And, because Nidhogg does not recognize that the modern citizens of Ishgard are not responsible for Thordan's sin, or otherwise doesn't care, he will wage eternal war on them to see them suffer forever. No other reason. Compare Midgardsormr (who is willing to give them a chance) and Hraesvelgr (who doesn't care for the most part, though he does bring Ysayle to Azys Lla so maybe he had a change of heart).

Understandable? I... guess. Relatable? Hard. Justifiable? Not in the slightest.

Oh I agree that he isn't right, but I could understand his thought process and tbh, with a case like this, it's easy to play devil's advocate. Also, at the same time as you're saying that it isn't right of Nidhogg to be attacking all Ishgardians for sins of their ancestors, I also don't think it was entirely right for us to go and murder all of Nidhogg's brood just to get at him. Was it perhaps cowardly of Nidhogg to hide back at home instead of coming out to face us? Sure, I'll grant you that. But it still felt wrong to me to be raiding the Aery, not to mention a little hypocritical.

Now, the problem is the time difference between man and dragon. Throughout the story, Hraesvelgr and Midgardsormr treat the incident with Thordan and his Knights Twelve as if it were yesterday to them. Fair enough, but Thordan and half the Knights were killed in recompense (already an unfair exchange if you follow the "eye for an eye" philosophy). Ishgard still stands, but the people who actually wronged the dragons are long dead. Midgardsormr says that the people of Ishgard have sinned, are blind to their sin, and want to sin yet again, but that's an extremely unfair judgment to make when even the Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights and the Azure Dragoon do not know the truth and are not in on the "Knights of the Round" plan. Remember that openly questioning the Church gets you branded a heretic, and that the only fate for heretics is death, and you'll understand why people don't question the Church's... embellished version of the story. (Hell, Estinien did have his doubts, he just never voiced them.)

Yup, but from the dragon POV, they have no reason to forget any of what happened or feel any less embittered about it. And yes, it may be an unfair judgement to make, but not based on his limited knowledge. Were both sides in the wrong in their own way? Admittedly so. My primary arguments though were that I can see it from Nidhogg's POV, and also that the Ishgardians made no efforts. They started to doubt, and then they came running to us for help, but as far as their own self-reliant efforts, they really didn't do anything. That's the only part that really bugs me, and that makes me think that anytime something else goes wrong, they'll be relying on us again which, all things considered, is a little odd considering that they're the ones with the legions of dragon-killing experts.

So again, it comes back to the fact that Nidhogg hates the very concept of Ishgard and has no intention of actually winning the war that makes it necessary to put him down. To save the countless lives that would be consumed by his unyielding hatred, and for all the ignorant, innocent people he shamelessly killed... I did not feel good about it, but it had to be done and must be done once more. So be it.

Yup, this was my point exactly, that you could not feel good about anything that was done because it felt so... extreme. Thank you for keeping this respectful unlike certain other posters, btw.

[Razem5791]

back to the OP thread, I wonder why you guys are so eager to kill the scions... You know, I left WOW after 10 years because, Hell ! I'm fed up to be just a second rate character for some NPCs to shine while I have done 90% of the job ! In WOW we are not the heroes ! Thrall, Varyan and cie are the heroes but we players are cleaning the raids, the dungeons, ect but we are nothing compared to these NPCs. Here, I know why I'm here, why I'm doing stuff and I'm rewarded by the scions respect (remember hesitation of minfilia when she asked us to do a mission just right we joined the scions). See how the chiefs of states treat us, remember that cinematic when Tataru-chan asked for a champion to fight for her when Alphinaud and her were unfairly arrested by Hishgard templars ! Hail the scions !