Speed Runs Suck

[Viridiana]

@Viridiana: No ones talking about a group without any AoE-class. But SCH and SMN do more dmg the more mobs are there, with additional use of Eye for an Eye, which you won't use on unrisky 2mob-pulls. One Bio (or think of trisaster) at a additional mob grants way more dps than an additional ruin on the single target does.
The hate generated by DoTs is minimal and me standing next to tank makes it easy for him to just switch target.

Well, pretty much nobody in this thread has specified what job we're talking about. Just "DPS" pulling mobs, and "it's more damage to AOE than to single target," both statements that can apply just as much to TP users as to SMN and BLM. I'm not telling people not to AOE, because I know that's more DPS. I'm not telling tanks not to pull as much as they can handle, eucause I know that's also usually more DPS. I'm telling DPS that if they intentionally pull things, they better be able to kill the mob before the mob kills them. Unless, of course, the tank asks them to pull, or what have you.

As a tank (or player at all) you have to know what different classes are capable of... If you got an add left with 10% health and 5 DoTs running.. just go on.
If you're struggling with mobs, dont pull more.
If you're doing fine (healer dpsing and tank not dropping health) then it's just fine if you try something out.
I dont see any reason for letting a player die, if [i]everything[\i] runs fine and only thing is that i'm 'forced' to do little more than minimum effort.

I think our only point of disagreement here is that I feel it's the tank's decision to pull more, not the DPS's. Again, unless the DPS can kill what they're pulling. I have pulled ahead of the tank before when I knew I could solo what I was pulling even if the healer and tank both left me to rot. But as far as I'm concerned, that's me saying "Guys, I've got this one; y'all go on ahead to the next group."

I play healer myself sometimes and i would never ever give someone no heals just for 'punishing' him.
What's next, not healing a tank on purpose who use too less CDs to teach'em that you as a healer decide how much health everyone has to lose at max?
Probably only not doing it, cuz u would be next one dying.

That's a non sequitur. I heal the person who's tanking. Priority goes to the actual tank, of course, but if I have a GCD to spare I'll heal someone who pulled aggro. If someone pulled another pack accidentally (and I do try to give the benefit of the doubt here), I try to keep them alive, too. If someone pulled on purpose and the tank takes it off of them, I keep healing the tank and it doesn't matter because the DPS shouldn't be getting hit. But as a rule, I try not to heal things the tank doesn't have aggro on.

Now, if I'm tanking and someone pulls aggro, I take it off them. If they accidentally face-pull, I take it off them. If they intentionally pull, I make sure the healer and other DPS don't get aggro. If that means that the guy who pulled ahead of me survives, so be it. If he dies. . .well, next time maybe he'll use defensive CDs.

After all it helps me to become a better healer, if i can react on such stuff (like in A2 it often happens that a dps gets initial aggro on a mob).
And i will never let someone die who does accidentially facepull (maybe out of my sight) and i think he did it on purpose, which may happen to healers like you.

And what dungeon is there where a DPS can face-pull out of sight of the healer and tank and not have it be his fault? Besides, I don't assume that people are doing things deliberately unless I see them actually doing it deliberately. As for stuff like A2, that's an entirely different situation than what we've been talking about. A DPS getting aggro on the occassional mob in A2 is an inevitability. It's a gauntlet where the DPS are expected to go almost all out the entire time and where it's impossible for the DPS to have enmity reduction up for every pull. At the same time, though, the tanks are prioritizing mobs that can't be allowed to run free. Things that wind up on the DPS will usually be the little guys who are less dangerous. I will gladly heal the DPS through the few mobs the tank didn't get enough hate on as long as it's something the DPS can kill before they die. If it's something they can't kill before they die to it, they should be working with the tank to not pull aggro.

The tank is supposed to balance their pulls so that they can maintain aggro and not die. I agree that this quite often means more than one group at a time, which should be keeping the BLM/SMN in the group happy anyway. The healer is supposed to keep everyone alive, with priority to the tank because the tank is also trying to keep everyone alive, and maybe throw in some dps if they have a spare GCD. The DPS is supposed to balance killing things with not pulling aggro unless it's a mob they can safely tank or are expected to tank.