Speed Runs Suck

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

As a machinist, I actually have prods to watch out for an ammo to consider to maximize my damage, in addition to dots and turret placement, instead of just popping reload for an extra 20 potency and 30 tp for another spread shot.

[Natandalus]

My viewpoint on tanking is this

1. If you are the tank, tank on how many mobs you are comfortable with.
2. If your healers/dps are pulling for you, ask them not to. if they don't listen let them die.
3. If you are only pulling one set at a time as you gear and skill gets better try to do more than one set at a time.
4. If you are losing hate on a consistent basis you may want to examine your enmity rotation.

Tanking is like an eternal game of cat and mouse, the tank holds the hate and the mice try to take it. If the mice keep taking your cheese find ways to improve until they aren't. The cheese is yours screw those mice..

[Metalwrath]

Speed runs are really starting to get on my nerves recently.Getting stupid tanks.Who think because they have mostly i200 gear it's fine to pull 8 mobs with a ninja and monk.Ther's no point to making those kind of pulls with dps set up like that.

[Nova_Dresden]

you could easily flip that around though. If players only ever do ST rotations then they'll "get bad" at AoE. Dungeons are there for you to apply your skills, not learn them.

And people didn't call nerfs on PS for hard trash, they called nerfs on the bosses. People were fine with the trash, and that's the only real example.

You have an idea of "play correctly" that is more of a personal preference. Which is fine, until you start telling other people they're wrong because of it.

I never said "no aoe, just single-target". There is a point where AoE rotations are favorable at a certain number of mobs, but below that single-target rotations are more favorable. That needs to be learned/taught. If every pull is 10+ mobs then all you'll ever see is AoE to the point it seems ludicrous. I'm still baffled with the number of summoners that have one rotation outside of a boss: Tri-Disaster, Bane, Miasma II, Painflare x2, Blizzard II until out of MP or Aetherflow is back up for more Painflare. Then when we're on a boss they're hit-or-miss on how bad they suck.

And Pharos Sirius was never hard. Every boss in that encounter has really one mechanic that the DPS should care about: Kill the adds. Killing adds is something that people just stop doing because they can or they don't do it because the assume the other DPS will or that the tank will hold them. I still have losses on that first boss simply because no one touches the adds and they spawn at % of health instead of being timed. Double summoners on that fight suck so bad because even if they do switch and kill adds the Pets and DoTs are still dragging his health down and spawning more dogs.

No and your bad if you think that.
The encounters are so pathetically easy the only challenge can be to min max it 2 seconds faster than your last speed run by improving group dps, and minimizing overhealing / tanking threat waste.

Which is an excellent idea if you're in a premade group with people you know. Random is random and watching a tank pull a ton of stuff to kill when I have more HP than the DPS as a healer is just stupid.

Speed runs are really starting to get on my nerves recently.Getting stupid tanks.Who think because they have mostly i200 gear it's fine to pull 8 mobs with a ninja and monk.Ther's no point to making those kind of pulls with dps set up like that.

Exactly. And speedruns have created another thing I loathe. I hate white mages. If you're a white mage, I'm sorry. I'm sure you're a wonderful charitable person, but deep down inside I still hate you a little bit every time I see that icon on the party list. Because apparently as a tank I'm nothing more than a regen target at pull, then something you Benediction at <20% health until I fall that low again and get a Tetragrammaton in between your Holy/Assize spam. I have never died one time with a SCH or an AST, but it's pretty much a guarantee that I'm going to die with a WHM in the party. Because of that, I pull slow with white mages.

[Malevicton]

snip

But again, people shouldn't be waiting to learn their job until level 60. Those dungeons are where you apply knowledge, not gain it. If that's where they're learning then dungeon design or speedrunning don't really matter; they've already messed up. And teaching target threshholds doesn't take a roundabout dungeon design. "Hey [person], you're job should aoe at 3+ mobs, otherwise, st." Boom, done. It's now taught.

And yeah PS wasn't that hard, but it's the only example of what you were talking about, and doesn't match up with what you were saying.

[Nova_Dresden]

But again, people shouldn't be waiting to learn their job until level 60. Those dungeons are where you apply knowledge, not gain it. If that's where they're learning then dungeon design or speedrunning don't really matter; they've already messed up. And teaching target threshholds doesn't take a roundabout dungeon design. "Hey [person], you're job should aoe at 3+ mobs, otherwise, st." Boom, done. It's now taught.

And yeah PS wasn't that hard, but it's the only example of what you were talking about, and doesn't match up with what you were saying.

No, they learn their job through 60 levels of speedrunning every dungeon they get because we've seen them a thousand times and are sick of them and are not waiting around for them. Then they hit 60 and are expected to know everything when no one took the time to actually tell them what to do in the process. Speedrunning creates bad players, not good ones. It can improve good players, but it doesn't take a bad player and make them better.

And Lost City is a better example. For a good week I had every tank under the sun pull EVERYTHING up to that first spore stalk and die seconds later expecting it to all go down like stuff in Wanderers Palace.

[Malevicton]

snip

But again, dungeons aren't suppose to be making bad players good. That's the player's responsibility. We've seen with guildhests that you can specifically design encounters as tutorials and people will still herpaderp through it, mashing esc through all the windows and not reading text. Designing dungeons to help people learn, besides being extremely boring for passably decent players, will just do the same thing as guildhests (nothing). And for the players who might be able to learn from those types of experiences, we already have guildhests. You're putting way too heavy of a burden on dungeon design if you want them to correct bad players.

Also that pull was manageable in Lost City when it was released if folks played right.

[drmambo1999]

I actually like speed runs, but generally when the party is specifically formed for that purpose. I mean, I am perfectly fine with duty finder speed runs as well, as long as every one in the party is on the same page, but I agree with some players, especially if you are still learning the dungeon/fight, there is a time where the higher geared players need to just chill and take things slowly.

Sometimes doing the dungeon the "slow way" is over all faster than trying to force a speed run with players unfamiliar with the dungeon who are dying because of your insane pulls.

[Blitzace]

As a tank you decide what is being pulled, If someone pulls something let em die(If they do it on purpose) If its your first time, They shouldn't speed run simple as that.

I had a new tank yesterday in a lv 50 dungeon, For fun i said, Pull it all matey Arrr! And he was a fun guy and surely he did. Pulled everything, We didn't wipe we had fun. So it all comes down to the tank. If you are comfortable with it, Do it, if not give it some more time, But in all honesty, Aim to speed run though. People like those tanks, If we can speed through it, Speed through it.

[karateorangutang]

This might be beside the point, but big pulls will ( if they aren't dense) force a newer tank to get used to the idea of mitigating damage through cooldowns on trash pulls. I can't tell you how many times in lower lvl dungeons I see tanks not using their defensive cooldowns at all until the boss. This is a huge disconnect and learning how to deal with big pulls forces a tank to use their cooldowns intelligently or the party will wipe. Sure, the first couple times you try your gonna fail and go down in a blaze of glory, but usually you can give simple advice about using cooldowns to their advantage and you can see a mediocre tank become a good tank over the course of a single dungeon.

Knowledge of proper cooldown rotation and pre-meditated use of the lvl 50 tank cooldowns is not taught in the game system. It's up to the player and senior players to help people along with this.