Speed Runs Suck

[BroodingFicus]

Speed runs make we want to stop healing. Not the speed runs where everyone is geared and you have amazing dps that can burn the pulls. No. That's fine but not the norm in my experience.

The runs I am talking about are ones where you find yourself (as I just did) almost oom every pull in Neverreap because you are staring at a half law half esoteric geared PLD, who somehow has only 500 more life than the two BLM's in your party, that is trying to speed run and just expects you to keep him alive. Then has the nerve at the end to 'GREAT RUN ' at me. I'm still trying to figure out how his HP pool was so low when his gear was that high but whatever the case he had no business speed running anything but that sure didn't stop him. The general feel I get in these runs is that the tank doesn't care if I have to burn benediction, tetra, and all my cool downs to keep them on their feet. So long as they don't die its a 'GOOD RUN '. Its not a good run. Its stressful, often slower if the dps involved don't have great aoe damage or the tank can't hold aggro, and it encourages your healer to watch you die just for the momentary satisfaction of seeing your health bar at 0. It doesn't prove you are a good tank. It feels like some strange pissing contest that the other three party members are simply drug along for because someone has to be there to hold the fans so that the tank can stand heroically in the aftermath. I tanked before I healed and frankly I never did speed runs on anything but Bray hard and only usually if I had a friend heal for me and knew the dps could take it. As healer I am not amused by the people already trying to speed run the newer dungeons. Especially the ones who can't be smart about it.

*closes rant*

[Akei]

<WORDS>

Tank health is not the be-all end-all metric of gear.


I run Experts (and Alex) in Str right side. So my health is ~14K. I've yet to find any occasion where Fending right side (which puts me at ~18K HP as a PLD) is required. Health does not = Mitigation. We get no additional DEF stats on fending gear. Sure its a small buffer at the start of a pull (assuming full health) but it wont mitigate anything. The whole HP issue has been hashed over time and time again on these forums.

It sounds more like you encountered a tank who believes Cooldowns are something you use when you hit 20% health or a RWAR I TANKZ IN DPS STANCE tank. Sadly I see alot of tanks who do this. Hit low health thresholds and then start poping every CD they have. If your that low in health its abit late to be poping CDs (Excluding Hallowed / Holm / Living Dead) I see alot of tanks who are in the mindset that CDs are something you use only when your in trouble, and they try to speed run. Thats the issue, not their HP pool. I see alot of tanks who think that pulling 3 packs in Del / Sword Oath / No grit is a good idea with zero CDs used. Neither of these are HP pool issues, they are stupid tank issues.

Like I said above, I run 14K HP, I use CDs and if I'm pulling alot of MoBs I'll be in the stance to deal with it (Some packs you can pull in DPS stance with a CD or two) I've yet to encounter an Expert Dungeon boss I cant tank in Sword Oath, when using CDs. Having 20K Hps does not a great tank make. Using CDs correctly, using stances correctly, positioning etc .. make a good tank. HPs is just gear ...

You mention that the tank was having aggro issues, So i'm going with - Str Right side, DPS stance, No cooldown usage. The trifecta of bad tanking.

[Iagainsti]

On the note of dps pulls, the only other mmo I've played is ffxi, where dps actually pulled to the party(positioning was important) so that doesn't bother me, I have no prob grabbing adds. What drives me nuts are ppl who get agggro and run around like maniacs; you're messing up my rotation homes chasing you down. Pro tip: gain aggro, run to the tank.

[Neophyte]

On the note of dps pulls, the only other mmo I've played is ffxi, where dps actually pulled to the party(positioning was important) so that doesn't bother me, I have no prob grabbing adds. What drives me nuts are ppl who get agggro and run around like maniacs; you're messing up my rotation homes chasing you down. Pro tip: gain aggro, run to the tank.

Exactly... if a tank holds aggro on 3 mobs and I pull the 4th (happend yesterday in Wanderer's palace with a single Tomberry, which was 5m away) and stack it on the tank.... than it's way more effort to not take it off of me. xD

And what exactly do ppl think to achieve by letting a dps die to an intentional pull on a single mob? Teach him a lessen, waste time? Great... maybe the dps teaches them a lesson in return by not attacking solo-adds which could be taken into his pull.
That's especially great for the two other ppl not involved, two divas who want to teach other lessons.. one letting the dps die (healer will jump in joy to be forced to turn CS off, just 'cause tank want to teach dps a lesson)... the other one not attacking and slowing the run further down.

It just shakes me, if I DoT+Contagion a pull and there's this solo-add which gets ignored by tank and stand like 5m away. Can't count the times when the Druid/healer in Fractal got totally ignored by the tank... usually I aggro it (DoTs+Fester), pull it LoS to the tank and Bane+PF.

[Noira]

Exactly... if a tank holds aggro on 3 mobs and I pull the 4th (happend yesterday in Wanderer's palace with a single Tomberry, which was 5m away) and stack it on the tank.... than it's way more effort to not take it off of me. xD.

You aren't the type of dps we are talking about though.

That's the "helping the tank out" dps.

We're talking about the type that run off and brings back a big mob with him/her and expect you to pull them off.

I have no qualms with your type. Sometimes I'll be too busy gaining aggro on the first set and trying not to keep moving so it's helpul for a dps to pull them closer.

[AriaEnia]

I hate it when tanks are using str accs, in dps stance, and can't even hold agro when I start using painflares and deathflares. I hate it. Why do you even tank? Go play dragoons!

[Fevelle]

I'm playing tank for achievement purposes, and I'm not taking this type of attitude.

On my first time tanking Haukke (never tanked in any other MMO, btw), I sent this into the chat, hoping to be polite and inform people that I'm new: "Hi, it's my first time tanking and I'm still learning, so please have some patience and follow the numbers. I'll try my best!" - for some reason the healer got upset saying I was level 28 and I should know how to tank already. I didn't respond to him, not wasting my time. Then the archer started running first and pulling mobs. I got the attention back with 1 Provoke and Shield Lob, and was about to start flashing to build up my aggro when the healer said "USE ONLY FLASH FOR MOBS, FLASH" to wich I responded "If the archer do not pull, I will use it". The archer said he was ok with that, but the healer pulled another group saying "If the tank don't pull, I will". I was mad, very mad, but I only replyed "Bye then" and left. I got lots of crafting to do so 30 minutes is nothing for me to avoid this type of thing.

Sorry for the long text, I just wanted to share it.

After that incident, I queued again and got a great party. I didn't lose aggro, no one died and it was a slightly fast run, wich is good for a newbie tank I think.

[Dement]

The whole argument always amuses me everytime it comes up. It's always made out that the speed running tanks are the bane of all existence. However, every dungeon I've gone into since I started tanking in 2.1 I open the dungeon with "Hello, do you all want big or small pulls." Almost universally, the answer is always nothing or that they want big pulls (3 times in a year and a half, I've been told to go slow).

As far as DPS pulling additional mobs, you should welcome the challenge. Yes as one poster stated there are no endgame mechanics where DPS/healers have to run ahead and pull mobs but there is a veritable ton of endgame mechanics where adds pop and you need to know how to secure snap aggro. Can it be annoying? Maybe if they're doing it too much but if that's the case maybe the tank should push a bit harder. If the party wipes because the DPS pulled additional mobs, then who cares? It's not like wiping has huge consequences. If the DPS get uppity, then you can point out that they were the ones who pulled more than you can handle and you can send your smugness through the roof!

[Seryl199]

The whole argument always amuses me everytime it comes up. It's always made out that the speed running tanks are the bane of all existence. However, every dungeon I've gone into since I started tanking in 2.1 I open the dungeon with "Hello, do you all want big or small pulls." Almost universally, the answer is always nothing or that they want big pulls (3 times in a year and a half, I've been told to go slow).

Since healing in 2.0, I've found that a vast majority of groups simply fail to communicate at all. If a tank asked at the beginning of the run what pace the group wants, that tank has secured my commendation. That's yet to happen since 3.0 and is such a rare occurrence otherwise that I can't even remember the last time I was asked. Back when speed running AK was both the fastest and easiest method (when mobs aggro'd to the tank would lose aggro and leash back to their home position, avoiding nearly all combat), and there was nearly no stress on anyone except the tank to die in the right spot and everyone else simply avoided LoS aggro, groups would routinely discuss whether to speed run or run normally.

Now that speed running puts stress on every member, in a seemingly backwards fashion, most tanks assume speed runs and pull multiple groups without saying a word. So kudos to you for taking the few extra seconds to communicate. Healers like me appreciate that you offer consideration and don't treat us as a heal slave. Occasionally after a crap day at work, I'd rather just take it easy, but I end up roped into a speed run anyways, making me edgy, more intolerant of mistakes, and more likely to leave the party.

Anyways, just wanted to point out that you're a rare breed, and I'd appreciate that you stop and ask, even though most of the time a speed run is manageable.

Snip

I've had this happen too, when communication is so easy. Even on PS4, a two or three letter response takes just a few seconds, and emotes are viable as communication and don't even need typing (plus they are more fun to use!). Just a shame that some drama can be skirted around by taking 20 seconds to communicate, and actually makes it feel like you're playing with people. Guess some folks just can't be spared the effort.

[karateorangutang]

Since healing in 2.0, I've found that a vast majority of groups simply fail to communicate at all. If a tank asked at the beginning of the run what pace the group wants, that tank has secured my commendation. That's yet to happen since 3.0 and is such a rare occurrence otherwise that I can't even remember the last time I was asked. Back when speed running AK was both the fastest and easiest method (when mobs aggro'd to the tank would lose aggro and leash back to their home position, avoiding nearly all combat), and there was nearly no stress on anyone except the tank to die in the right spot and everyone else simply avoided LoS aggro, groups would routinely discuss whether to speed run or run normally.

Now that speed running puts stress on every member, in a seemingly backwards fashion, most tanks assume speed runs and pull multiple groups without saying a word. So kudos to you for taking the few extra seconds to communicate. Healers like me appreciate that you offer consideration and don't treat us as a heal slave. Occasionally after a crap day at work, I'd rather just take it easy, but I end up roped into a speed run anyways, making me edgy, more intolerant of mistakes, and more likely to leave the party.

Anyways, just wanted to point out that you're a rare breed, and I'd appreciate that you stop and ask, even though most of the time a speed run is manageable.

It's unfortunate though that 80% of the time I ask a party about how they want me to run an instance and i'm met with mind numbing silence. So I try to give it 10 seconds and somebody runs ahead and pulls....

All i want usually is someone to say big pulls, or run it how you want....

Communication people.