Primal confusion - spoilers

[treuhavik]

Letting down the walls of one's soul and channeling a greater power than said person would naturally possess -- it's all exactly the same, from Iceheart to the Knights Twelve. I even believe the Asican's use this method of summoning when entering their "battle stance" (glyph). This is the true power of the echo. ...Aside from immortality, of course.

It would be, if they didn't keep their own names when they transformed. Iceheart becomes Shiva, but the knights keep their own names when they transform. Whether that's an example of the knights taking the names of the original twelve, or if their primal forms take their own names, I don't know if we know. I used the latter as my reasoning toward my decision that they are idealized forms of themselves, since they keep their own names they may very well simply be the same mind as the original host (the knight from today), just warped to an idealized form as a Primal.

It's my belief that the distinction here is simply a matter of what the summoner chooses to refer to themselves as after their transformation. Ysayle calls herself Shiva when she summons her perceived "Shiva-Power", whereas the Knights view it as simply summoning those guys' power to use as themselves however they wish. The game has always worked like this -- until someone or thing tells us what to call a person, they are known as "???". So, if some NPC named Steve changes outfits, puts on costume or summons primal power into himself and tells us to call him Jeffery now, cause he's "different", we will call him Jeffery until he returns to Steve form. But if he were to do the same thing, yet still refer to himself as Steve... Make sense?

[WyrahFhurrst]

-snip-

I agree your point makes sense, but I do still believe otherwise. Which I think is fine, unless the devs come in and tell us one way or another.

[Allyrion]

I don't see why the distinction would matter since it was explicitly stated that Iceheart had full control of Shiva's form.
Them keeping their names would only imply the same more implicitly.

[lololink]

So I just completed Ravanant EX and I got access to the dialogue about the warring triad in the french version and, as I suspected, no mention of Eikon. Here is what is said:

Que sont les divinités guerrière ?

What are the warring Divinities ?

Les divinités guerrières... Derrière ce nom mystérieux se cachent les primordiaux sous le nom que leur avaient donné les allagois.

The warring divinities... Behind that mysterious name are hidden Primals whose name were given by the allagans.

Ils obéissent à d'autres règles d'espace-temps que les Primordiaux que nous connaissons mieux. Nous ne connaissons pas la manière par laquelle ils sont invoqués, ni les raisons de leur arrivée dans notre monde. Tout cela reste enveloppé de mystère...

They obey to different rules of space and time unlike others Primals that we know better. We don't know how they were summoned, neither the reasons of their coming to our world. All this is shrouded in mystery.

Vous avez peut être déjà croisé Odin, le Chevalier des ténèbres qui rôde dans la forêt de sombrelinceul. Certains pensent qu'autrefois, d'autres divinités guerrières telles que lui erraient sur ces terres.

You might have came accross Odin, the knight of darkness wandering in the black shroud. Some thinks that once, other warring divinities like himself wandered these lands.

Parmi elles, les plus puissantes sont sans conteste celles qui font partie de la Triade guerrière. Dans leur grande sagesse, les Allagois ont utilisé leur énergie pour donner de la force motrice à Azys Lla, le continent flottant.

Amongs them the strongest are without a doubt the member of the Warring Triad. In their great wisdom, the Allagans used their energy to give it's power to Azys Lla, the floating continent.

Vous imaginez donc l'étendue de leur puissance... Leur éveil, s'il advient, sera synonyme de fin du monde.

You imagine then how powerfull they are... Their awakening, if it comes, will be the end of the world.

C'est une perspective bien sombre, mais vous êtes le Guerrier de
la Lumière n'est-ce pas ? Héhéhé.

This is a dark omen but you are the Warrior of Light aren't you ? hehehe

So according to this version Eikon are Warring divinities, and possibly came from other worlds and not summoned ( well not the same way other were summoned, classic summoning seems to create the primal while maybe the warring divinites were called ), could they be true gods ? Ironically the word Eikon would then mean false god to Garleans.

[WyrahFhurrst]

IIiiiiiiiiinteresting. So Eikons, or Warring Divinities (maybe they're all gods of war/battle?), do seem to have an existence that defies the rules of this world, and if the idea of Unulkalai being Elidibus is factored in, then perhaps the Eikons are a danger not just to his plans, but to the nature of reality (or even just Hydaelyn) by merit of their existence.

[Fatshine]

I still don't understand what exactly Archon's are. Also is Hydalean the planet itself? Like mother earth? Or God himself (or in this case herself?)

[treuhavik]

I still don't understand what exactly Archon's are.

The meaning behind "Archon" is still ambiguous. It's both a designation given to those of eras past who came forth on the eve of each calamity, bearing the echo, to warn humanity of the impending doom, AND, more recently, a title for members of the circle of knowing. I suppose the common connection between the two groups is that they both make an effort to thwart calamities, so we'll just go with that -- Archon = Calamity Forestaller.

Also is Hydalean the planet itself? Like mother earth? Or God himself (or in this case herself?)

Hydaelyn is both the name for the planet and the name of the Mothercrystal. Anything beyond that, including whether or not they're one in the same, we don't yet have proof for.

[Akiza]

Hydaelyn the planet and the Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal are not the same. Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal is the creator of light that made the world we live in and created the Twelve and Eikon. Also Primals drain the planet and not Hydaelyn herself.

[treuhavik]

Hydaelyn the planet and the Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal are not the same. Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal is the creator of light that made the world we live in and created the Twelve and Eikon.

As much as I hate to further this digression, if you're going to claim that the Mothercrystal is the creator of light, the planet, The Twelve and all eikons/primals, I'd very much like to see your proof...

You should consider beginning your conjectures with "I think...", at the very least.

Also Primals drain the planet and not Hydaelyn herself.

The Ascians might disagree with that statement also.

[WyrahFhurrst]

I still don't understand what exactly Archon's are. Also is Hydalean the planet itself? Like mother earth? Or God himself (or in this case herself?)

Archons are the names given to individuals who are supposed to represent the Twelve on Hydaelyn. The image of Rhalgr as a large Roegadyn with a staff is actual a representation of one of the old Archons from an age passed.

As for is Hydaelyn the planet itself, the short of it is yes. She is "All Made One," generally referring to all life on the planet. She is the great flow of aether that breathes life into everything, as well as the point to which all aether returns when a life ends. She may not be the creator of the universe, because I don't think we know enough about the origin of the universe as a whole to say that, but she is our Mother, the progenitor of our souls.

She is not, however, the progenitor of the Eikons. We are told they came from other worlds, so they cannot be among her children as we are. Primals, however, are more like parasites. Mankind makes them, but they feed off of her aether and weaken her.