Anyone else think NIN should be able to Goad itself?

[Adire]

Have you considered asking the MCH/BRd or a TP boost?

I had a Ninja with me in Fractal who complained after second boss that he ran out of TP. So i said if he needed TP just ask and ill Promote.
He ignored me.

Yes. This is just a discussion over the lack of fairness there is for melees and self-tp restoration. A bard or machinist may not always be available to a NIN. In statics there will likely be one or the other in a good group, but in future content (such as the likely 24-man raids to eventually come), it's up to chance.

[Sylve]

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I played Monk all through 2.x, Only time i had issue with TP was fights that just never had melee downtime, and even then, Invig at the 550 TP mark and it was up again when i got back to half~ TP.
Proper use of Invig and not just leaving it till you run completely dry before using it gives you all the self restoration you need.
Also played Ninja a fair bit. Same deal there, Invig at the right time kept my TP up for the whole fight.

With all that being said, you can always slow down your DPS by leaving off DoTs or not hitting a skill every time you possibly can. TP is the natural inhibitor for physical DDs, Having the BRD or MCH eliminates that inhibitor. Without that, you just have to slow down.
And before you scream "But DPS checks!" If you arent managing your TP well enough to beat a DPS check, the problem isn't the Job.

Finally, if every DPS never had to ever worry about TP (Like BLMs with MP), Skills like Goad, Promote and Songs cease to have any meaning or purpose in a group setting.

[Adire]

snip

Hmm. I tend to use invigorate as a monk and NIN at the same time. At 570 TP or so. Yet my experience has been quite different in WoD against the dragon, using that example again. Even when I stop using touch of death/mutliation when running low. With purification, even a long fight similar to that should no longer be a problem for a monk.

Doing that on NIN at this point, with stacked skill speed and potentially even longer fights for a while due to not being overgeared and harder fights in general, I foresee problems.

A person in a LS I'm in has NIN at 60 and did dummy combat for a bit and experienced TP starvation quite quickly as well.

I also believe Promote and Paeon would still be useful in certain situations, such as for melees fresh out of raise.

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

Possibly, but we've already got that as a potential problem with Bards who refuse to play songs for other DPS. The other melees have the tools to be more resistant to TP starvation as well. They should not need goad as badly as NINs need it.

[Kaela]

Possibly, but we've already got that as a potential problem with Bards who refuse to play songs for other DPS. The other melees have the tools to be more resistant to TP starvation as well. They should not need goad as badly as NINs need it.

Okay you have a fair point, both you and superskull, I've been in with those kind of bards and they tick me off. However, as I mention it is a trade off. As bards we give mp and our dps for everyone to gain back tp. Meanwhile, nin has none. Except for the fact they cannot give it to themselves. It all comes down to tp management. Only tp regeneration as bards we have is the same invigorate you are mentioning. And that was a nightmare when 2.4 gear was released and most of the poetics gear gave us nothing but skill speed. I knew bards that would run out within a few minutes of a pull because it was so high.

Skill speed is not as much as an issue now, however it is all about balance and knowing how to conserve when you need to.

[Sylve]

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Not being entirely self sufficient is actually a good thing, surprisingly enough.
That being said, if you're going through 1k TP in less than 2 minutes with natural regen and invig, something seems quite wrong.

Dummy testing is not real combat testing.
Dummies don't fight back, and they don't have phases or periods that slow down your TP consumption. Raid bosses tend to have situations where you break away from the boss, either to avoid AoEs, deal with adds or just Titan-like periods where the boss simply isn't there.

Of course, there are exceptions, like Fractals first 2 bosses, where there is essentially no downtime and you fight for 5 minutes straight. But again, those situations are outside the norm.
Even something as simple as not refreshing GL3 when im low has given my TP time enough to regen to an acceptable state while building the stacks back up. Yes, i take a hit to my DPS to do that, but thats kind of the whole point of the TP system.

The 100 extra TP a DRGs Invig gives isn't the reason why it has less TP trouble than Monks or Ninjas, Its more to do with the slower pace of its damage dealing.
Consider dropping Huton when you feel you're going to run dry on TP. It may sound like a horrible idea, but losing the massive Skill Speed bonus will let your Regen bring your TP up enough to go back to full burst.
TP is intended to inhibit a physical DD from doing 100% DPS all the time no matter what. Its a balance factor.
Some people don't see it, but that's exactly how a Bard and Machinist boost overall DPS for the party. The day they let everyone regulate their own TP is the same day they delete Songs/Promote and beef up their damage to NIN/MNK/DRG levels.

[Adire]

snip.

No...it's not less than 2 minutes. The dragon boss fight can drag on (pun intended) for quite a bit longer than that, and there is no downtime. If group DPS is lacking, it can go on past 2 invigorate CDs. If SE adds more fights like that, NIN in its current state will be TP starved very quickly, even quicker and when the boss has even higher health most likely.

Also, dummy testing can be accurate when compared to certain fights. It simulates a no-downtime boss quite well. Like the dragon, there is no downtime on dummy testing. I think given that SE added Purification in the first place insinuates there may be further TP heavy fights in the near future.

And yeah, I'm aware. I've mentioned a few times now that in addition to the traited invigorate, Dragoon also has a slower skill speed to slow TP burn. DRG's damage is quite on par with monk and NIN now though. They don't need the skill speed to keep the damage up.

[UBERHAXED]

The dragon boss fight can drag on (pun intended).

-_-

Ehem... Not seeing this as a problem as ninja right now is contending for the highest DPS. It's called balancing: some jobs are good dps for short fights, while others are good for longer fights (like T8 was). That being said, the real reason to purposely make jobs starve of TP and MP is to put use to the support skills by the lower dps jobs. Otherwise those baseless arguments of no one letting bards and machinists in their groups will have some standing.

There's reason why SE said Bard damage is fine (and didn't even comment on Machinist damage), and the reason being is that in real raids, they will be required and it's the casters who will now get the shaft seeing as people can just stack 3 melee for more damage (ranged LB already does more than caster LB). In the end, you complain about bards and machinists, but there will never be groups with both BLM and SMN if the groups have a reason to include casters at all.

[Adire]

snip

>.>

Are you aware that in an extended fight or a short fight, a DRG should now be putting out very similar DPS to a NIN? NIN has an extremely high burst phase at the beginning, but unless you're on trash mobs, a DRG should catch them fairly quickly.

Difference is, NIN will run out of TP far sooner in a long fight and burn it faster on any fight due to high skill speed and low regen capability. Not sure how that's balanced.

And again, outside of a static or premade, there's no guarantee you will have a bard or machinist. That's why it's important that melees have decent TP regen too. And when long, low downtime fights come in, all except NIN will. That is not fair or balanced.

Bards particularly also have to be careful of when they sing. Burning your MP on one song, then the healer going down and needing MP when you can't provide it because you spent yours is a real risk.