Anyone else think NIN should be able to Goad itself?

[Sylve]

Monks now have Purification, which will help on longish fights with little downtime if any are coming.

Dragoons have traited Invigorate and lower skill speed than the other two melees.

NINs have only non-traited invigorate for self TP restoring and high skill speed when Huton is up.

It doesn't really seem fair. Even if Bard and Machinist are taken into consideration, NINs are still gimped on self TP restoration vs skill speed.

Have you considered asking the MCH/BRd or a TP boost?

I had a Ninja with me in Fractal who complained after second boss that he ran out of TP. So i said if he needed TP just ask and ill Promote.
He ignored me.

[Adire]

Have you considered asking the MCH/BRd or a TP boost?

I had a Ninja with me in Fractal who complained after second boss that he ran out of TP. So i said if he needed TP just ask and ill Promote.
He ignored me.

Yes. This is just a discussion over the lack of fairness there is for melees and self-tp restoration. A bard or machinist may not always be available to a NIN. In statics there will likely be one or the other in a good group, but in future content (such as the likely 24-man raids to eventually come), it's up to chance.

[Sylve]

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I played Monk all through 2.x, Only time i had issue with TP was fights that just never had melee downtime, and even then, Invig at the 550 TP mark and it was up again when i got back to half~ TP.
Proper use of Invig and not just leaving it till you run completely dry before using it gives you all the self restoration you need.
Also played Ninja a fair bit. Same deal there, Invig at the right time kept my TP up for the whole fight.

With all that being said, you can always slow down your DPS by leaving off DoTs or not hitting a skill every time you possibly can. TP is the natural inhibitor for physical DDs, Having the BRD or MCH eliminates that inhibitor. Without that, you just have to slow down.
And before you scream "But DPS checks!" If you arent managing your TP well enough to beat a DPS check, the problem isn't the Job.

Finally, if every DPS never had to ever worry about TP (Like BLMs with MP), Skills like Goad, Promote and Songs cease to have any meaning or purpose in a group setting.

[Adire]

snip

Hmm. I tend to use invigorate as a monk and NIN at the same time. At 570 TP or so. Yet my experience has been quite different in WoD against the dragon, using that example again. Even when I stop using touch of death/mutliation when running low. With purification, even a long fight similar to that should no longer be a problem for a monk.

Doing that on NIN at this point, with stacked skill speed and potentially even longer fights for a while due to not being overgeared and harder fights in general, I foresee problems.

A person in a LS I'm in has NIN at 60 and did dummy combat for a bit and experienced TP starvation quite quickly as well.

I also believe Promote and Paeon would still be useful in certain situations, such as for melees fresh out of raise.

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

Possibly, but we've already got that as a potential problem with Bards who refuse to play songs for other DPS. The other melees have the tools to be more resistant to TP starvation as well. They should not need goad as badly as NINs need it.

[Kaela]

Possibly, but we've already got that as a potential problem with Bards who refuse to play songs for other DPS. The other melees have the tools to be more resistant to TP starvation as well. They should not need goad as badly as NINs need it.

Okay you have a fair point, both you and superskull, I've been in with those kind of bards and they tick me off. However, as I mention it is a trade off. As bards we give mp and our dps for everyone to gain back tp. Meanwhile, nin has none. Except for the fact they cannot give it to themselves. It all comes down to tp management. Only tp regeneration as bards we have is the same invigorate you are mentioning. And that was a nightmare when 2.4 gear was released and most of the poetics gear gave us nothing but skill speed. I knew bards that would run out within a few minutes of a pull because it was so high.

Skill speed is not as much as an issue now, however it is all about balance and knowing how to conserve when you need to.

[Sylve]

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Not being entirely self sufficient is actually a good thing, surprisingly enough.
That being said, if you're going through 1k TP in less than 2 minutes with natural regen and invig, something seems quite wrong.

Dummy testing is not real combat testing.
Dummies don't fight back, and they don't have phases or periods that slow down your TP consumption. Raid bosses tend to have situations where you break away from the boss, either to avoid AoEs, deal with adds or just Titan-like periods where the boss simply isn't there.

Of course, there are exceptions, like Fractals first 2 bosses, where there is essentially no downtime and you fight for 5 minutes straight. But again, those situations are outside the norm.
Even something as simple as not refreshing GL3 when im low has given my TP time enough to regen to an acceptable state while building the stacks back up. Yes, i take a hit to my DPS to do that, but thats kind of the whole point of the TP system.

The 100 extra TP a DRGs Invig gives isn't the reason why it has less TP trouble than Monks or Ninjas, Its more to do with the slower pace of its damage dealing.
Consider dropping Huton when you feel you're going to run dry on TP. It may sound like a horrible idea, but losing the massive Skill Speed bonus will let your Regen bring your TP up enough to go back to full burst.
TP is intended to inhibit a physical DD from doing 100% DPS all the time no matter what. Its a balance factor.
Some people don't see it, but that's exactly how a Bard and Machinist boost overall DPS for the party. The day they let everyone regulate their own TP is the same day they delete Songs/Promote and beef up their damage to NIN/MNK/DRG levels.

[Neri]

But didn't ninja has less TP consumption for each skill than other job? Eventually it will even out? Meh, I can't remember lol.

[Kaela]

Considering we, as bards and machinists loose dps as the sacrifice to use our tp restorations on the group vs nin able to restore tp to someone else in the group except themselves without the cost of mp or anything of the sort. I believe it is a fair trade off.

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

[Superskull85]

Considering we, as bards and machinists loose tp as the sacrifice to use our tp restorations on the group vs nin able to restore tp to someone else in the group except themselves without the cost of mp or anything of the sort. I believe it is a fair trade off.

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

Well in the same respect you can find "bad Bards" that refuse to sing even foes not even mentioning a ballad or Swiftsong to help dungeon completion time. Heck you could find a Summoner that doesn't assist with Eye for an Eye mitigation or raises. A bad apple example shouldn't exclude the usage of Goad on self for when it is necessary or beneficial to the group.

[Superskull85]

I really don't see why not just like I don't see why melee are not able to make use of Quelling Strikes either or have a melee equivalent. Yeah Ninja specifically can transfer eminity to another target but if you overgear any Tank as any other class you are forced to hold back or else risk a potential death/angry tank.

There are at max 8 players per party but almost double the jobs yet some of the choices in regards to TP sustainability or eminity reduction are not standard amongst classes as a design choice. Having Bard is Machinist supply TP is all well and good but at least for Bard it is a direct decrease in damage in a state where, because they are technically a DPS, to meet a damage check. And yes you can time when you supply TP, etc.

It would be nice to live in a system where you would take or want X, Y or Z and not need X and Y because of a long fight but also Z because it is a long fight and we could use utility damage speed it up per TP cost. But also need W (a Tank) to generate a lot of threat because of lack of standardization which means less damage and a longer fight due to not necessarily using high potency combos.

I know, I know you can get around all of this and the game is doable without these tools on all classes but this is just something that has erk'd me since I started playing. So long story short yes I agree.