Poor Decision making? (Spoilers)

[Anonymoose]

The Archbishop claims that the transformation was powered by a 1000 or so years of prayer and the power of the eye. Now unless I've missed a MAJOR detail, this is clearly not true. At no point has any characters mentioned Thordan with any benevolence, if anything he appears to be treated as a "cool" myth and people only talk about him when directly asked about it.

This isn't going to be a very critical analysis; I'm just kind of rambling off the top of my head. To outsiders, it seems a lot like what you're saying here, but things are different inside of religious communities. The longer that a scripture survives, the more versions of it are written, the more schisms create new denominations of it, the more and more elaborate some of the tales become (especially if this all started back when people generally knew less than they do later), and the more and more venerated they are.

There are apocryphic texts where Jesus tames dragons and make snakes explode and curses people blind. Saints of various religions are said to fly and walk through fires unburned and tear lions apart with their bare hands and become giants. That's the kind of stuff people are believing of King Thordan and the Knights Twelve - embellished, inflated stories backed by an extremely zealous central religion and the need for security after a millennium at war with dragons.

However, there IS a suitable "Person" who seemed to be ripe for the summoning. This person has and still is worshiped to this day by many Ishgardians. Characters also often pray to this person (off-handedly i'll admit) at multiple points during the MSQ. It just seems so obvious to me that Halone would be primal of choice for Ishgard.

Once you get that deep into your worship, a certain level of interaction with the godhead becomes so far over the line as to be considered blasphemous (though they clearly don't have a problem with idolatry or deity depiction given the art and statures, lol). I think the only person who'd dare do anything on Halone's behalf would be Thordan VII, and he wanted to become a god in and of himself using the inflated, mythical version of Thordan I.

Do you think we could have beaten Halone?

How many crystals did she eat?

Why Thordan over Halone?
Was the Archbishop uncomfortable in becoming a female primal?

Maybe, though he was clearly selfish in his desire. He wanted to be a God-King. I can't really tell where Halone would have fit into that. Does he do away with her and reign himself? Does he keep her above him as Her worldly representative and chosen ruler? I'll keep an eye out as I re-read things; I've only been over it the one time so far.

Where did the aether come from?

Now that I'm still fuzzy on. Crystals in their pocket, like Iceheart? lol

[tkcrispy]

Some interesting and plausible ideas here. Although i'm beginning to realize that summoning rules as a whole are.... flimsy. Which is somewhat understandable, given the restraints that the original "rules" put in place. After all there are other instances of summoning against the rules. For example, Garuda managing to simultaneously summon Titan and Ifrit by inflicting pain on a very small group of individuals with no crystals in sight. Then Ysayle summoning Shiva solo whilst in free-fall (Which MIGHT have possibly been powered by Hreasvlgr, although nothing actually made this distinction). Also, was it not meant to be crystals of the correct elemental type? If so then that idea has gone out the window with King Mog, Ravana, and King Thordan having no discern-able elemental type(Although i guess the eye could technically hold all elemental types).
On a final note, how important are crystals anyway? Bahamut was imprisoned for millennia, yet there was no sign of crystals in the coils. It's also been mentioned that many other Primals like beings have been captured by the allagans, do they imprison each with a life supply of crystals?

[Whiteroom]

Some interesting and plausible ideas here. Although i'm beginning to realize that summoning rules as a whole are.... flimsy.
On a final note, how important are crystals anyway? Bahamut was imprisoned for millennia, yet there was no sign of crystals in the coils. It's also been mentioned that many other Primals like beings have been captured by the allagans, do they imprison each with a life supply of crystals?

Are crystals even needed beyond the inital summoning?

Another funny thing about primals, since it has come to light that they are just creations of the summoner imaginings. How are some then aware of others, such as Ramuh. Don't some of the others as well refer to each other, or was that something from the 1.0 version. Also, how did Ruda summon Titan and Ifrit in the same form as we fought, aside from it just being easier for the devs to do it that way.

[Velox]

Are crystals even needed beyond the inital summoning?

Another funny thing about primals, since it has come to light that they are just creations of the summoner imaginings. How are some then aware of others, such as Ramuh. Don't some of the others as well refer to each other, or was that something from the 1.0 version. Also, how did Ruda summon Titan and Ifrit in the same form as we fought, aside from it just being easier for the devs to do it that way.

Garuda did not summon Ifrit and Titan. She inflicted pain onto the Amalj'aa and Kobolds to a point where they called out and summoned their respective deities themselves. That's why they didn't change form. We see Ifrit and Titan as the Amalj'aa and Kobolds (summoners) see them.

[Dualblade]

If I'm correct one of the bigger reasons he went to Azy in the first place was because of the Warring Triad, IE a GIANT WELLSPRING OF AETHER to use from himself. The Ravana EX quest also mentions him wanting to take the Warring Triad's power/aether for himself for his conquest of Eorzea (and I think something about Bismark just wanting to eat them? Not sure there.)

[Velox]

Bahamut was imprisoned for millennia, yet there was no sign of crystals in the coils. It's also been mentioned that many other Primals like beings have been captured by the allagans, do they imprison each with a life supply of crystals?

Primal don't necessarily need crystals. It's a misconception. Primal need aether for sustainment. It just so happens that corrupted crystals are a wellspring of aether in a tangible form, thus making it possible to accumulate them without technology. Allag had no need for them since their devices captured the sun's energy. Their tech was so advanced they could twist and manipulate aether at will. The internment hulks that bound Bahamut kept funneling aether into him. That plus the endless prayers of the imprisoned dragons fueled his eternal existence. Even after he was struck down by Louisoix, the hulks kept trying to rebuild him. The whole Coil premise was to shut down the IHs to stop Bahamut's regeneration.

[Cilia]

Are crystals even needed beyond the inital summoning?

Another funny thing about primals, since it has come to light that they are just creations of the summoner imaginings. How are some then aware of others, such as Ramuh. Don't some of the others as well refer to each other, or was that something from the 1.0 version. Also, how did Ruda summon Titan and Ifrit in the same form as we fought, aside from it just being easier for the devs to do it that way.

Strictly speaking crystals are never required for summoning. Aether matching up with the element(s) of the primal to be summoned is usually used, e.g. for Bismarck to be summoned the Vanu Vanu just need (a lot of) wind, water, and lightning aether (based on his attacks). Crystals are just a convenient way of carting aether around since they're a dense, tangible form of a normally intangible substance.

They do still need aether after an initial summoning; the aspected aether available to a primal determines it's relative strength. We go up against Shiva and she's reasonably tough (story-wise), but then she gets trounced by Ravana which (according to Ysayle) was due to the lack of available ice crystals (aether).

It's been confirmed the primals are vaguely aware of each other, even if they've never met face-to-face. As manifestations of (elemental) aether, they always exist in the Lifestream where they probably bump into each other as elemental forces. Other people explained how it wasn't Garuda that summoned Ifrit and Titan, but captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds praying to them.

[Daralii]

If I'm correct one of the bigger reasons he went to Azy in the first place was because of the Warring Triad, IE a GIANT WELLSPRING OF AETHER to use from himself. The Ravana EX quest also mentions him wanting to take the Warring Triad's power/aether for himself for his conquest of Eorzea (and I think something about Bismark just wanting to eat them? Not sure there.)

It's mentioned even during the fight itself. Before the Knights of the Round phase, he tells Ascalon to "Drink deep of the power of slumbering gods," which I'm assuming was referring to the Warring Triad.

[Lethorian]

Here is my take on the whole thing, I will try to answer your questions as best as I can, and correct me if I am wrong anywhere:

1) "ArchThordan" had a tremendous amount of prayer. 1000 years worth of prayer. While those in Ishguard did praise Halone and seek her out for strength in times of need, it isn't the same as praying to her. The Holy-See were more than anything followers of Thordan I. The Dragon Song War had nothing to do with Halone. Ishguard were getting behind Thordan and believed enough in him to continue feuling the war for 1000 years thinking the dragons are the ones who drew first blood and more than anything wanted retribution for that.

2) Halone would have been just as strong as Thordan was, with they same amount of prayer and Aether thier power would have been equal.

3) Because it was Thordan who was revered by the Holy-See. It is also my belief that the Archbishop did not wan't to actually become a god, but the hand of a God. Like the Garleans, the Holy-See had the same goals as we do: Extinguishing the Primal threat. The thing is they were fanatics and were going about it all the wrong way seeking supression instead of freedom. He wanted to do Halone's bidding, not become Halone herself.

4) You seem to be confusing worship and belief. They don't exactly need down-on-your-knees-worship in order to fit the conditions of summoning, they simply need a strong belief in place, and as I stated before Ishgardians BELIEVED in Thordan I. This belief is also separate from the Aether supply, both belief and aether are required for summoning. The aether supply was the Eye of Niddhog. If you remember we used an Eye to destroy an Ascion just before this fight, which was a lot easier to do than what we had to go through the last time we wanted to destroy an Ascion (gather a ton of aether before hand, plus sacrifice a Scion). Using the eye, while also being weakened after being used to break the barrier of Azys Lla, was still much easier than what the previous method was. Thay had a fresh fully charged eye at thier disposal, they pretty much had an unlimited supply of aether.

5&6) As stated above, He just wanted to do Halone's bidding more so than become her.

7) Like The Moose stated, this one was all the Ascion's doing, which then became thier own undoing.

Bonus) One thing I believe is that the Archbishop didn't exactly become Thordan I, but that he manifested Thordan I into the giant sword he was using, much like how Odin is not the weilder, but actually the weapon weilded.

Hope some of this helps you!

[Beckett]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Twelve probably wouldn't allow a Primal of themselves to exist.

Why Thordan over Halone?

It's not really so much one over the other. Both are worshiped, but it's a very different sort of worship. It's the difference between George Washington and Jesus. One is considered to be a great man with mythos much larger than what he actually was, and is known and revered by millions of people hundreds of years after his death. The other is considered to be a literal aspect of God. It's easy to see how, in the world of FFXIV, Washington could be summoned as a Primal, given lore and aura surrounding the name.

Where was their Aether supply?

That was where the eye came in. It had much more aether than all the crystals used to summon any of the beastmen Primals.