How does the "Power of Darkness" work? (Minor DRK spoilers)

[Cilia]

snip

Funny enough, I'm not entirely convinced Hydaelyn is the benevolent goddess she's made out to be for similar reasons. Primarily because she's, you know, a goddess, and we're made to protect and serve her. While it's far from the same genre, the Souls games (and Bloodborne) touch these kinds of things. Paraphrasing BB's Plain Doll:

"Eorzeans have told me about Hydaelyn. About the Goddess, and Her love. But... does the Goddess love Her creations? Of course, they do love Hydaelyn. Isn't that how She's made them?"

Even Thordan tells you that by tearing down the Church you're offering Ishgard only "virtuous suffering" and "bitter truth," but (DS II's Aldia) "no matter how tender, how exquisite, a lie will remain a lie."

Chaos is freedom - the freedom to do as we wish, unbound to the yoke of Ishgard, or Eorzea, or even Hydaelyn herself. The quest log for DRK even says so. Chaos is considered inherently evil, but as important component of freedom... is it really?

EDIT

Not that XIV is the sort of game to touch on such vagaries of morality...

[Allyrion]

The quest log for DRK even says so.

They really put a lot into the DRK quest log. It's really interesting.

[saber_alter]

Funny enough, I'm not entirely convinced Hydaelyn is the benevolent goddess she's made out to be for similar reasons. Primarily because she's, you know, a goddess, and we're made to protect and serve her. While it's far from the same genre, the Souls games (and Bloodborne) touch these kinds of things. Paraphrasing BB's Plain Doll:

"Eorzeans have told me about Hydaelyn. About the Goddess, and Her love. But... does the Goddess love Her creations? Of course, they do love Hydaelyn. Isn't that how She's made them?"

if i know gods and goddesses, they always have ulterior motives. most likely we are just her self defense mechanism though...the overpowered kind.

Even Thordan tells you that by tearing down the Church you're offering Ishgard only "virtuous suffering" and "bitter truth," but (DS II's Aldia) "no matter how tender, how exquisite, a lie will remain a lie."

aldia has the right of it. the truth stings because it is supposed to. Ishgard lived a lie out of necessity to stave off Nidhogg's rage, and though the dreadwyrm is back, the necessity died with the archbishop and the heaven's ward.

Chaos is freedom - the freedom to do as we wish, unbound to the yoke of Ishgard, or Eorzea, or even Hydaelyn herself. The quest log for DRK even says so. Chaos is considered inherently evil, but as important component of freedom... is it really?

i see this slightly differently. chaos and lawfullness are not similar to good and evil, though they share the same tendencies. someone who is evil can bring chaos, and someone who is good can be lawful. the ascians are a perfect example of this trait: on one hand they seek to destabilize hydaelyn to bring about the rejoining, but at the same time they seek to restore the balance with their own champion. same goes for us, who value the freedom adventurers have, but wish the world not to fall to the ascian's chaos.

Not that XIV is the sort of game to touch on such vagaries of morality...

yeah, it definitely doesn't. just sunshine and moogles here kupo.

[Allyrion]

yeah, it definitely doesn't. just sunshine and moogles here kupo.

Well it deals mostly in alignments and doesn't mesh them too much.
Like you all said, chaos isn't evil in itself. It's like the DnD alignments.
There's is Chaotic Evil (Garuda) and Lawful Evil (Thordan) . Likewise, there's Chaotic Good (DRK) and Lawful Good (PLD).

I actually would say that Lawful Good is the least represented by the NPCs.
I wanted to say Scions, but they're pretty rogue most of the time. They definitely fall into Neutral Good.

FFXIV deals with the alignments heavily.
I guess it's not vague in the sense that people mostly fit into one category and stay there most of the time.
That's pretty true. Otherwise, it definitely deals with the spectrum of alignments and separates lawful and good (as well as chaos and evil).

[saber_alter]

Likewise, there's Chaotic Good (DRK) and Lawful Good (PLD).

i would say that DRK falls more into chaotic neutral or true neutral. we do good, we do bad, we don't get a shite about most laws, and will kill people who hide behind them.

I actually would say that Lawful Good is the least represented by the NPCs.
I wanted to say Scions, but they're pretty rogue most of the time. They definitely fall into Neutral Good.

they for the most part follow the law. they really have their own alignments however, with thancred being the closest to chaotic good while the rest are neutral or lawful. minfilia, Y'shtola, and papalymo are without a doubt lawful good though.

FFXIV deals with the alignments heavily.
I guess it's not vague in the sense that people mostly fit into one category and stay there most of the time.
That's pretty true. Otherwise, it definitely deals with the spectrum of alignments and separates lawful and good (as well as chaos and evil).

exactly! good and evil (like order in chaos) are not polarizing. those that walk the road to ruin pave the ground with good intentions, and villains can turn into anti-heroes just as quickly. Thordan made it perfectly clear that he was becoming a god-king for the good of eorzea and that nothing would stand in his way in achieving his goals. he WANTED to see a ishgardian empire at peace with the world, and was willing to do anything to make it so. He was ultimately wrong, and his way of going about his goals were as poor as gaius,' but he had good intentions.

[shinros]

Well sid also mentions we use the power of the abyss. Now what the abyss is? Is it related to Zodiark or the void? Who knows. I mean when you finish the 60 quest and learn your last skill the text says "From the abyss you hear a whisper.....", now where is this whisper coming from? Normally before if we learnt a skill through our darkside it would say so. For example when we learned abyssal drain? Or was it sole survivor? It said "Your dark side feeds on the pain" or something like that.

Maybe we will learn more if they add a questline for our artifact weapon and armor. Or we may have to wait until the next level cap increase.

[Mysteltain]

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 2 parallels

I like those examples and raise you a Demons' Souls, haha! In DeS, one of the characters is Yuria the Witch who uses an off-shoot of the Soul Arts (magic utilizing the souls of demons), aptly called Witchcraft. To quote her description of it:

]Freke wields a different kind of magic from my witchcraft.
Freke's magic stems from an understanding of the essence of the Demon soul,
while my witchcraft merely channels its energy. If the Demon is cursed, so shall be the witchcraft.
Freke's power comes from human potential, while mine is a dark, dependent art.

Sage Freke also later comments that Yuria's witchcraft appears to be tied to her emotions, hence why a lot of the spells come across as uncontrollable or dangerous to the player, themselves. It seems like XIV follows suit with this, as both White and Black Magic are very well defined and systemized, requiring full understanding of what one is doing to make the most use out of it, while Dark Magic stems from a much more raw nature, and thus makes it more unwieldy and chaotic.

[shinros]

Honestly I think our power is void based I think abyss is just another word for it just like chakra is aether. I mean you can't go around saying that you use the power from a place which spits out demon like creatures no one is going to want your help then.

[Cilia]

Well, getting back on topic from the discussion about Hydaelyn...

Implicitly, the power of darkness is harnessed through physical and/or emotional duress, conscious or otherwise. "Fray" is a construct of your post-traumatic stress from 2.x, and as a defender with no shield we're taking a lot of punishment. Blood Weapon drains MP with every hit. Then there's Blood Price, where we literally feed off of our pain, and Syphon Strike, Souleater, Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, and normal Carve and Spit, where we vampirically drain our enemy's life energy.

What does this have to do with the power of darkness?

Demons and voidsent feast on aether, so you could say we're tempting the darkness with our own aether and harnessing it through the pain and suffering that goes along with it, then replenishing our aether by draining it out of our enemies.

Honestly I think our power is void based I think abyss is just another word for it just like chakra is aether. I mean you can't go around saying that you use the power from a place which spits out demon like creatures no one is going to want your help then.

That's entirely the point of being a dark knight. People will shun and hate you for what you are, for what you do. Dark knights are the people who have seen the truth - that the world is a strange and cruel place, and that the only real justice is that of the grave. Instead of sugarcoating what we do with valor, honor, duty, religion, or custom, we have no illusions about such lofty ideals - we kill the corrupt people law can't touch because nobody else will, and if we don't do so they'll just get away with killing and hurting more people.

We know what we are - criminals, murderers. And we know what that means, what it costs, and what it's worth... and choose to fight anyway, because no one else will.

That's the ideal, at least. Sidurgu himself uses that ideal as an excuse to indulge in vengeance, but he seems to be moving toward that ideal after the 58 quest. Let's just let this little exchange between Yuri and Flynn from Tales of Vesperia sum up the Dark Knight ideal; Yuri is, obviously, the Dark Knight.

Yuri: The laws have always been the tools of whoever happens to hold all the chips.
Flynn: Just saying that doesn't make it right for individuals to judge right from wrong, or for you to operate out of your own private court of law! If the laws are at fault, then fixing those laws comes first.
Yuri: But you can't deny that lives were saved because those bastards were put down. You'd rather tell those people, 'Sorry you have to die today. I promise we'll change things real soon'?
Flynn: That's not what I'm saying at all!
Yuri: They're out there, you know. People so bad they'll just go on hurting others. What can the average person do but be victimized by people like that?
Flynn: Even so, Yuri, what you're doing isn't right. Do you intend to rain your justice down on all the villains of the world? That's the behavior of a common criminal.
Yuri: I recognize it for what it is, and I've made my choices. Murder is a crime.
Flynn: ...And still, you intend to dirty your hands?
Yuri: Intend to? I already have.

... and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what it means to be a Dark Knight.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Here's my recomendation for a new Dark Knight War Cry. (Curtosy of Hellsing Abridged series)

Who are we?
The Nessisary Evil!
Why are we nessisarry?
To purg the world of evil worse than mine!!
And why are we, the Gods chosen few, ordained to undertake this unholy task?
Because no one else will!!!!
And because it's F-ing FUN!!!!!!!