Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

[GideonHighmourn]

You're right, it's not necessary. I didn't say it was. I just thought you were severely underplaying the power of a cost reduction buff. It's a huge help, and it lasts for 20 seconds, not 15. It's not going to buy them a spot unless they have a baseline healing, which they currently don't. But if they can baseline heal about the same as SCH/WHM and provide a range of powerful buffs on top of that, then they can vie for a spot. Right now they can't, because they just don't even have as powerful healing as either WHM/SCH.

Even at equal healing potency, I'd still find their range of "powerful" buffs severely underwhelming, most of all since they're reliant on RNG. In my eyes, AST's buffs are only powerful on paper. Since paper doesn't account for RNG, or actually NEEDING one of the buffs AT A SPECIFIC TIME, AST's range of "powerful" buffs is anything but "powerful". It feels tacked on and poorly thought out, especially RR/Shuffle which almost always result in a "loss" compared to just using the original card in the first place. I've drawn Ewer 8+ times in a row in a group with no MDPS. Spear is iffy at best, and I usually just let it expire (so I don't get another CD from RR, since it's also a "loss" with Spear).

I love the idea and concept of AST. I was super excited for it before launch; however, I'm severely underwhelmed at the gimp WHM with RNG cards tacked onto it. It doesn't feel complete, at all. Especially since Nocturnal Stance is so awful and lacks synergy with the baseline toolkit that Dirunal has. The distinct lack of healing cooldowns and poor MP efficiency is terribly evident even at level 50 (compared to WHM/SCH); let's not even talk about Lightspeed. I'm not hating on AST, but the vehement defense of such an underpowered, incomplete class makes me sad; it could have been really awesome, but what we got was a gimp WHM with "meh" RNG buffs.

To me, a perfectly AST being only "passable" in content with a perfectly played group is unacceptable.

[Alahra]

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful." Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run. It may end up having an overall negligible effect on the experience. Spear in particular is bad for this in 4-mans because the Expanded Royal Road buff is essentially a loss for your next buff. Spire and Ewer at least give Extend, which is almost always useful, except when you already have the Extend waiting (which is where the RNG can be very punishing at times).

[GideonHighmourn]

It's worth noting that there is a difference between "has a use" and "is useful." Just because you can drop Spear on yourself in a 4-man dungeon to shorten your Luminiferous cooldown doesn't mean you *need* it for that or that you will notice its effects in the long run. It may end up having an overall negligible effect on the experience. Spear in particular is bad for this in 4-mans because the Expanded Royal Road buff is essentially a loss for your next buff. Spire and Ewer at least give Extend, which is almost always useful, except when you already have the Extend waiting (which is where the RNG can be very punishing at times).

Couldn't have said it better. This is part of what I've been trying to explain.

AST feels incredibly unsatisfying in 4-man content because of this, and it's not because their healing is sub-par. It's because the core mechanic that separates AST from SCH and WHM is poorly implemented.

However, in 8-man content AST lacks considerably in the healing department, and then also feels unsatisfying to play, as it only caters to perfect scenarios and flawless execution by team mates.

Why in the world are we talking as if 4 man dungeons matter for anything? Nothing is balanced around 4 man dungeons. AST is fine in 4 man dungeons.

Some people actually care about 4 man dungeons, as well. Especially since, what? Only 15% of the playerbase even finished BCoB? I'd say it's important.

[GideonHighmourn]

Which is why I suggested buffing the tools that mitigate the RNG rather than just doing away with half of it.

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

It\\\\'s not uncommon to do 4-mans without a magic DPS or physical DPS, which makes at least 1 of 6 draws immediately useless. Even one of the magic DPS can\\\\'t really make much use of Ewer; BLM is really the only class in 4-mans that can significantly benefit from it.

Physical DPS in 4-mans also don\\\\'t tend to need more TP/Spear; sometimes a WAR/PLD might, though. It gets a mild pass.

Combined with Shuffle not redrawing the same card, and Royal Road buffs being more effective in a 4-man setting, I could see AST being far more satisfying as an alternative to SCH DPS. It would make smart gameplay far more rewarding, rather than being given the middle finger everytime you draw Ewer/Spire.

[SuzakuCMX]

Ewer/Spire combination needs to happen, at the very least.

It\\\\'s not uncommon to do 4-mans without a magic DPS or physical DPS, which makes at least 1 of 6 draws immediately useless. Even one of the magic DPS can\\\\'t really make much use of Ewer; BLM is really the only class in 4-mans that can significantly benefit from it.

I agree. Spire is useless to use on someone in a 4-man anyways since you only run out of TP if your DPS is too low in the first place. I also think Spire/Ewer combo would make sense because you could just combined it into a "Spell and weaponskill costs are reduced by 20%," and 20% chance to draw a card sounds like a good between for 33% and 16.6%. It's unlikely to happen though, because they'd have to either make a new card to replace the 6th or change the storyline entirely to cut out the 6th gate.

Ewer always useful for RR or Spread to save for later.

Spear useful on SMN/SCH/NIN/Tank.

Physical DPS in 4-mans also don\\\\'t tend to need more TP/Spear; sometimes a WAR/PLD might, though. It gets a mild pass.

I agree. I'm really hoping the not reducing already used abilities is a bug and it gets fixed.

Combined with Shuffle not redrawing the same card, and Royal Road buffs being more effective in a 4-man setting I could see AST being far more satisfying as an alternative to SCH DPS.

Yes, but I still feel like AST would fall flat on its face during harder content because of the lack of healing

I don't feel it needs *drastic* changes at all.

I agree. QoL fixes here or there or small changes would go a long way.

There are a number of simple fixes that would make the cards feel useful without retooling the whole system. Ewer and Spire would be more generally useful if they provided resource regeneration instead of cost reduction, for instance. Spear would be better if it worked on already spent cooldowns (as is, it requires knowing that someone hasn't spent their cooldowns, which is a level of communication that's just not generally available in a split second)--but that would also be incredibly powerful, so they might need to rework that one. Bole, Balance, and Arrow are pretty much fine. Beyond that, Shuffle should probably not be able to draw the same card again.

I agree with all of this as well, except that would make Ewer/Spire useless at the beginning of a fight which is more or less the same as it is now (IE: totally useless to use in a lot of situations).

Their healing side needs work too, but nothing drastic is likely to be needed there outside of potency tweaks, though Lightspeed probably needs a rework so it's actually a decent emergency button.

I agree. Their healing only needs potency tweaks, and other than that it's really just making their cards and abilities more useful (Lightspeed, Noct Stance in general, Celestial Opposition are the largest offenders IMO.

[Alahra]

I agree with all of this as well, except that would make Ewer/Spire useless at the beginning of a fight which is more or less the same as it is now (IE: totally useless to use in a lot of situations).

That's a fair point, though Goad at least can be useful early in a pull on a tank or something. The resource management only has an affect in longer encounters either way, but they're probably set on keeping them as resource tools. It would be nice if they did something else small in addition to their resource adjustment (something like a small critical hit buff for Spire, perhaps, or a minor HP regen for Ewer). That way if the resources aren't needed, they can still have at least a small benefit (in the event that you already have RR and Shuffle into one).

And yes, Nocturnal needs adjustments as does Celestial Opposition. I'd like to see Collective Unconscious lose one of either the movement lock or casting lock, but in Diurnal at least I have occasionally found it useful for a mana-free period of healing.

[GideonHighmourn]

Yes, but I still feel like AST would fall flat on its face during harder content because of the lack of healing

I meant Spire, not Spear, sorry. On my phone and can't edit. Also, Lore can easily be edited; it's a lousy reason to keep a poorly designed mechanic.

Yes, AST healing does need adjustments in 8-man content, especially in regards to nocturnal stance and cool downs

[Nadirah]

Hit 60 SCH.

Holy *shit* the difference in ex roulette...

*sigh* So much easier to heal as SCH...

[MidnightTundra]

Hit 60 SCH.

Holy *shit* the difference in ex roulette...

*sigh* So much easier to heal as SCH...

Bane and Fairy just makes it fly by doesn't it?

[Nihility]

as a 60ast and 60sch i can safely say scholar absolutely blows astrologian away.

I've done both manipulator and ravana ex in both astro stances with a WHM partner and surprisingly diurnal produces better results. It's a better self buff and the HoT stacking is a lot better than super inefficient shields
Also, Synastry is a heck of a good skill. It makes things that can be kind of sketchy a breeze

Scholar though... the situations never get sketchy to begin with. Everything is taken care of and dealt with before it ever even gets scary

It's just night and day, so much stronger in every way you can't even really compare


My WHM isn't 60 yet but so far it's the better comparison to astrologian
astrologian feels like a weak WHM that is slightly more nimble and has to choose between HoT or shield instead of just having regen and fast stoneskin
and instead of having really serious damage output, it has potentially pretty strong but wholly unreliable gambling buffs