SMN Theorycraft and comparison to Blm

[gorezilla1]

So, Hai Hai put together a VERY detailed theorycraft on the new smn abilities and rotation. I did some theorycrafting on my own, but it's nothing near as detailed or informed as his. I will warn you: it is SO VERY Long. But be sure to upvote it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...de_by_hai_hai/

This is not his first work. Right after the Nantes Heavensward press-conference, he had a very detailed (possible) theorycraft and though the actions work differently than first imagined, even then it was sound. This new document however, is simply Brilliant.

[SovereignAegis]

Read it and my exact reaction is this: How dare summoners finally be viable? How dare they.

I played back when Scholar, summoner and warrior were considered garbage and you would get kicked from FCs for playing them, I tried to play summoner in 2.0 ARR and was always kicked out of raids and basically told to bugger off because a BLM did 100x more (and I knew it). So now that summoner is finally viable/comparable to BLM there is an outcry for nerfs? I don't buy it and it actually makes me a bit miffed. Summoners have needed sweeping changes for the longest time, as did BLM. Nothing could out AoE damage a black mage before, NOTHING. They spammed flare and absolutely trivialized content and arguably were the single reason why AoE speed runs became so popular. Because they could flare spam anything away.

However for the BLM players to argue that their class is in a state similar to 2.x ARR summoner (As I have seen numerous times, not necessarily this particular article)... HAHAHAHAHA no. I have healed and watched so many BLM (enough to fully i179 SCH and Summoner!) that their AoE is STILL on point and is certainly comparable to summoner rotation. I even have seen (most of the time actually) their direct damage to a single target be greater than summoner, and yes this is including gear differences. The BLM is no where near in an unviable state as this article may have people exceedingly wrongly believe. Furthermore a BLM requires setup, as was marked many times before- but so does a summoner. A summoner needs to apply (and maintain) all DoT effects to get their DPS out.



I strongly feel that BLM gets better and better the more familiar they are with content. IE: Have fun as a new BLM in the last boss in neverreap. Then I see experienced i179 BLM in that same boss fight absolutely cheese it. So I outright flagrantly disagree with the notion that BLM is inferior to summoner- rather I'd say for the first time since the release of arcanist/summoner is farily balanced with thaum/Blackmage. Perhaps the 400 potency flare could be knocked down to 350- but in reality that is all I'd see needing balance. BLM can still chug a potion/their other options and spam flare far more easily than can a SMN spam their 400potency flare.


ALSO: I want to state that the expansion has only been officially out for about a week. People don't know their proper rotations 100% yet, they are not yet familiar with their abilities or the boss battles. ALL OF THOSE THINGS IMPACT THE BLM DIRECTLY. Why? Because when a BLM knows they can just blow up faces with enochian and ley lines they will be able to and in such a state do wreck face. The more familiar one is with content/the better the player the higher the reward from BLM. In a month BLM will be back to being king.

[HaroldSaxon]

Read it and my exact reaction is this: How dare summoners finally be viable?
How dare they.

I played back when Scholar and warrior were considered garbage and you would get kicked from FCs for playing them, I tried to play summoner in 2.0 ARR and was always kicked out of raids and basically told to bugger off because a BLM did 100x more (and I knew it). So now that summoner is finally viable/comparable to BLM there is an outcry for nerfs? I don't buy it and it actually makes me a bit miffed. Summoners have needed sweeping changes for the longest time, as did BLM. Nothing could out AoE damage a black mage before, NOTHING. They spammed flare and absolutely trivialized content and arguably were the single reason why AoE speed runs became so popular. Because they could flare spam anything away.

However for the BLM players to argue that their class is in a state similar to 2.x ARR summoner... HAHAHAHAHA no. I have healed and watched so many BLM (enough to fully i179 SCH and Summoner!) that their AoE is STILL on point and is certainly comparable to summoner. I even have seen their direct damage be greater than summoner, and yes this is including gear differences. The BLM is no where near in an unviable state as this article may have people exceedingly wrongly believe. Furthermore a BLM requires setup, as was marked many times before- but so does a summoner. A summoner needs to apply (and maintain) all DoT effects to get their DPS out.



I strongly feel that BLM gets better and better the more familiar they are with content. IE: Have fun as a new BLM in the last boss in neverreap. Then I see experienced i179 BLM in that same boss fight absolutely cheese it. So I outright flagrantly disagree with the notion that BLM is inferior to summoner- rather I'd say for the first time since the release of arcanist summoner is farily balanced. Perhaps the 400 potency flare could be knocked down to 350- but in reality that is all I'd see needing balance. BLM can still chug a potion/their other options and spam flare far more easily than can a SMN spam their 400potency flare.

Yet another player who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Last patch, flare could not be "spammed" due to the transpose cooldown. But the AOE nerfs aren't the issue with BLM as they were fair imo (although its a shame Flare doesn't seem to be viable in Single target like it was before.s2

The issue is with a number of things; Thundercloud being made useless, a large amount of DPS lost from Fey Glow, a large amount of DPS lost from Spell Speeds nerf. Then you have issues that when combined mean that movement kills your rotation. That is; 3 second F4 cast times, 10 seconds of Astral Fire, diminishing returns when refreshing enochian (even if using the ability rather than B4 refreshes).

Then you have the Umbral Ice to Astral Fire "lock" which means you can't cast Fire 4 immediately.

The issue isn't so much with SMN, they seem to be in a good spot compared to other DPS; the issue is that clearly BLM has not been tested properly, otherwise these issues would have stood out.

Then again, does it matter if the content allows you to run 3 x Melee, enjoy.

HaiHai has given a decent run down on the issues there, its unfortunate that others can't be as objective.

Your edit:

ALSO: I want to state that the expansion has only been officially out for about a week. People don't know their proper rotations 100% yet, they are not yet familiar with their abilities or the boss battles. ALL OF THOSE THINGS IMPACT THE BLM DIRECTLY. Why? Because when a BLM knows they can just blow up faces with enochian and ley lines they will be able to and in such a state do wreck face. The more familiar one is with content/the better the player the higher the reward from BLM. In a month BLM will be back to being king.

There has been more than enough time to work out rotations and fights. BLM will not be "back" to being king without changes (it never was in overall dps terms for all DPS).

[OneWingedSora]

The issue is with a number of things; Thundercloud being made useless.

You do realize you can still use Thunderclouds right ? During your first Enochian rotation you got plenty of time to use it, and on your last Enochian refresh you can also use it after your last Fire IV. So really, it's only not usable during the second Enochian refresh.

Though I do agree they should make it so you can finish your F4/B4 casts if you started casting them and Enochian fell off mid cast as well as remove the animation lock from transitioning from UI to AF.

[hallena]

Snip

This entire post is so wrong its not even worth pointing out everything that is wrong with it

[Malevicton]

Super snip

You realize that smn was the preferred caster in first and second coil right? I get fcob was the longest content cycle and stuff, so I'm not trying to turn it into a "Who's the bigger victim?" competition, but a huge amount of what you said is just straight up wrong.

[Akiza]

Read it and my exact reaction is this: How dare summoners finally be viable? How dare they.

I played back when Scholar, summoner and warrior were considered garbage and you would get kicked from FCs for playing them, I tried to play summoner in 2.0 ARR and was always kicked out of raids and basically told to bugger off because a BLM did 100x more (and I knew it). So now that summoner is finally viable/comparable to BLM there is an outcry for nerfs? I don't buy it and it actually makes me a bit miffed. Summoners have needed sweeping changes for the longest time, as did BLM. Nothing could out AoE damage a black mage before, NOTHING. They spammed flare and absolutely trivialized content and arguably were the single reason why AoE speed runs became so popular. Because they could flare spam anything away.

However for the BLM players to argue that their class is in a state similar to 2.x ARR summoner (As I have seen numerous times, not necessarily this particular article)... HAHAHAHAHA no. I have healed and watched so many BLM (enough to fully i179 SCH and Summoner!) that their AoE is STILL on point and is certainly comparable to summoner rotation. I even have seen (most of the time actually) their direct damage to a single target be greater than summoner, and yes this is including gear differences. The BLM is no where near in an unviable state as this article may have people exceedingly wrongly believe. Furthermore a BLM requires setup, as was marked many times before- but so does a summoner. A summoner needs to apply (and maintain) all DoT effects to get their DPS out.



I strongly feel that BLM gets better and better the more familiar they are with content. IE: Have fun as a new BLM in the last boss in neverreap. Then I see experienced i179 BLM in that same boss fight absolutely cheese it. So I outright flagrantly disagree with the notion that BLM is inferior to summoner- rather I'd say for the first time since the release of arcanist/summoner is farily balanced with thaum/Blackmage. Perhaps the 400 potency flare could be knocked down to 350- but in reality that is all I'd see needing balance. BLM can still chug a potion/their other options and spam flare far more easily than can a SMN spam their 400potency flare.


ALSO: I want to state that the expansion has only been officially out for about a week. People don't know their proper rotations 100% yet, they are not yet familiar with their abilities or the boss battles. ALL OF THOSE THINGS IMPACT THE BLM DIRECTLY. Why? Because when a BLM knows they can just blow up faces with enochian and ley lines they will be able to and in such a state do wreck face. The more familiar one is with content/the better the player the higher the reward from BLM. In a month BLM will be back to being king.

Deathflare doesn't need to be nerfed since its is already balanced around a 60s cool down and there is no mechanic that increases its damage like Fire IV or Flare.

[hallena]

Deathflare doesn't need to be nerfed since its is already balanced around a 60s cool down and there is no mechanic that increases its damage like Fire IV or Flare.

what mechanic increase the damage of fire IV?

[Clarkamite]

Snip

Just a couple things I took issue with in your post though on the whole I agree. Let me start off by saying I'm a Black Mage main and will always be a Black Mage main. I loved it in 2.0 and I love it now. There are a couple of things that make the "rotation" messy at least as it pertains to the current endgame scene but overall I think it's in a fairly decent spot.

One thing I took issue with is you saying you played when Summoner, Scholar and Warrior were garbage. I can't speak on the Scholar part although I will say I never recall Scholars ever being excluded. Warrior definitely was in a rough spot for awhile but Summoner? When was that ever garbage? Maybe to people who didn't understand Summoner. Pre SE taking away Thunder, Summoner was God mode. Post, less God mode but still pretty damn good. I had Summoner friends hitting huge numbers all the time. Anyone remember how the opening pull of Twintania Summoners were insane? How about during Snakes?

My group has to this day run this comp: PLD, WAR, SCH, WHM, NIN (or DRG for awhile), BRD, BLM, SMN and we've cleared content just fine. Our SMN did switch up to a MNK during our T13 progression but that was just for the Dragonkick to help our Healers a little. Our Warrior had the worst time holding aggro for some dumb reason. Can't count the number of times our Warrior swore up and down saying he had a "Full combo Butchers Block up on the add right away" but it immediately went and ate our WHM.

If we are comparing numbers on dummies than obviously Black Mage is going to look super pretty. In actual practice, those numbers are less pretty but I would by no means say they need a serious buff and I certainly would never be as asinine to suggest Summoners need a nerf. MAYBE a couple of really really small tweaks for Black Mage but even then I'm fine with it if they don't. Both Casters are in a good spot.

As far as people saying BLM AOE is really bad now, I can't give you numbers but you definitely feel A LOT weaker. It's noticeable to go into old dungeons now and Flare a group that would normally all die but you're left with 3-4 stragglers with a decent chunk of HP left. Speaking from the POV of someone who used to Flare religiously in dungeons, that FEELS really gimped now. I'm sure the actual numbers are fine and in line with what SE intended, it just feels weak from before.

If I'm being perfectly honest though I'm kinda ok with that. Flare still has pretty solid utility in a ST rotation and I always hated how my job in dungeons was the same Every. Single. Patch. At least now I have an excuse not to AOE until the dungeon is over. A lot of pulls right now, AOE simply isn't faster than just putting up Enochian and unleashing some ST madness.

[Akiza]

what mechanic increase the damage of fire IV?

Black Mage has more synergy with the party than Summoner so Astrologian, Scholar and Dragoon increases Black Mage damge if they cooridiante Arrow and Balance for Astrologian, Scholar Selenes Haste buff and Dragoons Battle Litany and Black Mage single target is 50 dps higher than the Summoner.