Dat Fell Cleave tho...

[Falgern]

And if a DRK was in a group with no NIN, no BRD, and no MCH I could see your point. The changes of that happening are quite slim...real groups =/= practice dummy

Isn't it a problem when a class relies on another player to be able to perform much worse than another class? And if we are looking at real fights it will get even worse since WAR has huge burst. Currently WAR are doing equal damage to or more than BRDs without anyone even raising an eyebrow. There is no way a tank should be allowed to do as much damage as DPS classes. I'm fine with WAR doing slightly more damage, but they are doing much more damage right now.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Isn't it a problem when a class relies on another player to be able to perform much worse than another class? And if we are looking at real fights it will get even worse since WAR has huge burst. Currently WAR are doing equal damage to or more than BRDs without anyone even raising an eyebrow. There is no way a tank should be allowed to do as much damage as DPS classes. I'm fine with WAR doing slightly more damage, but they are doing much more damage right now.

Except BRDs are not a DPS class, they are support. Tanks should be doing more then support. Support just needs better support. <3

[Temjiu]

Isn't it a problem when a class relies on another player to be able to perform much worse than another class? And if we are looking at real fights it will get even worse since WAR has huge burst. Currently WAR are doing equal damage to or more than BRDs without anyone even raising an eyebrow. There is no way a tank should be allowed to do as much damage as DPS classes. I'm fine with WAR doing slightly more damage, but they are doing much more damage right now.

BRD's are getting a buff in the next big patch, as are MCH, this much has been made known. so comparing their DPS at this point isn't a good idea. and in both those Vids, the WAR was only ahead by about 100 DPS (the DRK averaged 900-950, and the WAR averaged 980-1010). This could easily be an issue of DRK balance. It is a new class, and could use some twinking (the proliferation of forum threads attest to this). My Point is that it may not be an issue of the WAR DPS, it may be an issue of 2 under-balanced support classes, and an under-balanced tank class which is new to the game.

So you should probably say, "There's no way a DPS should be doing less damage then a tank class". which is the case here...most the other DPS specs are in the 1100-1200 range our higher, which places them solidly above the WAR, and the BRD and MCH should be able to get close to that. the fact that they currently don't is well know to the dev team, and is being fixed. And if the DRK could maintain 900 DPS (or perhaps even a bit more once they address the resource issues they apparently have...read the DRK threads and you'll see) and still be stable in a group situation (which they can be atm if they have a NIN/BRD/or MCH in the group), then it's not an issue.

EDIT: also in watching those vids, I noticed that the WAR is in their DPS stance the whole time. Undoable in a tanking situation, as you lose 25% of your health, 25% healing bonus, and a stacking parry buff. at best a tank could swap stances in low damage situations and get out an occasional Fel Cleave....of course if you choose to do that, you're also losing a chance to use inner beast, which is a Damage reduction boost for 5s, and a damage shield. So essentially, that WAR is not playing a tank. a DRK has the advantage of being able to maintain their damage buffs while having their tank stance up at the same time. WAR has to choose.

You need to be able to take a look at the bigger picture here, and stop looking at a single skill with spike damage and go off on the FotM cry of "OMG, OP needz nerfz!" Once hard content is released, and we have a better spread of nuimbers to compare things too (not to mention after they've adjusted MCH/BRD and possible even DRK), then we can really see what's going on.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

BRD's are getting a buff in the next big patch, as are MCH, this much has been made known. so comparing their DPS at this point isn't a good idea. and in both those Vids, the WAR was only ahead by about 100 DPS (the DRK averaged 900-950, and the WAR averaged 980-1010). This could easily be an issue of DRK balance. It is a new class, and could use some twinking (the proliferation of forum threads attest to this). My Point is that it may not be an issue of the WAR DPS, it may be an issue of 2 under-balanced support classes, and an under-balanced tank class which is new to the game.

So you should probably say, "There's no way a DPS should be doing less damage then a tank class". which is the case here...most the other DPS specs are in the 1100-1200 range our higher, which places them solidly above the WAR, and the BRD and MCH should be able to get close to that. the fact that they currently don't is well know to the dev team, and is being fixed. And if the DRK could maintain 900 DPS (or perhaps even a bit more once they address the resource issues they apparently have...read the DRK threads and you'll see) and still be stable in a group situation (which they can be atm if they have a NIN/BRD/or MCH in the group), then it's not an issue.

EDIT: also in watching those vids, I noticed that the WAR is in their DPS stance the whole time. Undoable in a tanking situation, as you lose 25% of your health, 25% healing bonus, and a stacking parry buff. at best a tank could swap stances in low damage situations and get out an occasional Fel Cleave....of course if you choose to do that, you're also losing a chance to use inner beast, which is a Damage reduction boost for 5s, and a damage shield. So essentially, that WAR is not playing a tank. a DRK has the advantage of being able to maintain their damage buffs while having their tank stance up at the same time. WAR has to choose.

You need to be able to take a look at the bigger picture here, and stop looking at a single skill with spike damage and go off on the FotM cry of "OMG, OP needz nerfz!" Once hard content is released, and we have a better spread of nuimbers to compare things too (not to mention after they've adjusted MCH/BRD and possible even DRK), then we can really see what's going on.

Maim is 20% damage with no penalty.
Darkside is 15% damage buff with huge MP sacrifice.

Methinks you don't play Marauder.

However, even Warrior isn't overpowered in my Opinion because they are a high risk high reward stance dancing tank. They risk losing the battle due to their recklessness.

[Temjiu]

Maim is 20% damage with no penalty.
Darkside is 15% damage buff with huge MP sacrifice.

Methinks you don't play Marauder.

However, even Warrior isn't overpowered in my Opinion because they are a high risk high reward stance dancing tank. They risk losing the battle due to their recklessness.

Well, to be honest I was comparing Deliverance and Defiance, not Maim. TY for the correction btw, I do play Maurader. but the DRK not so much, just keep up on the forum threads. probably shouldn't have compared Deliverance to Darkside...though in my defense DS is a bit more like Deliverance then it is Maim. DS is a stance that is instantly triggerable, whereas Maim's buff is based on whether you hit or not, and lies behind a few GCD's, but i digress. the DRK skills wasn't the point.

And it seems like we agree on the High risk concept, which was what I was trying to express to the other person. in order for that player, in the video, to get the numbers they got, they were in Deliverance the WHOLE TIME. Maim was inconsequential at that point, as they really weren't tanking (and a WAR would use maim whether they were in Deliverance or Defiance). Even WITH Maim, and Deliverance (i.e. no extra mitigation bonuses, no real extra threat outside 2 skils), that WAR was only 70-100 DPS head of the DRK. Thats allot of risk for a very small reward.

And for the record, It would seem like the DRK could use some tweaks. I won't go too far into that as I don't play the DKR much, but if they had more effective TP management, and some adjustements to mitigation skills, they would be in a pretty sweet spot. But that has to do more with DRK balance (which i brought up in another thread), then WAR OP-ness.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Well, to be honest I was comparing Deliverance and Defiance, not Maim. I do play maurader. Don't play DRK much, just keep up on the forum threads. And it seems like we agree on the High risk concept, which was what I was trying to express to the other person. in order for that player, in the video, to get the numbers they got, they were in Deliverance the WHOLE TIME. Maim was inconsequential at that point, as they really weren't tanking (and a WAR would use maim whether they were in Deliverance or Defiance). Even WITH Maim, and Deliverance (i.e. no extra mitigation bonuses, no real extra threat outside 2 skils), that WAR was only 70-100 DPS head of the DRK. Thats allot of risk for a very small reward.

Darkside isn't a stance, its a buff. Otherwise you could not use either. Maim is also a buff. They are comparable. I apologize for the assumption though.

However, Dark Knight needs a buff or revamp. Warrior is fine and really needs no changes, Paladins might need 80 potency on flash.

I probably am switching DRK to Warrior though, because they do have a bit more that they can do. They have a lot of fun to them the other tanks do not.

[AniCelestine]

I noticed that the WAR is in their DPS stance the whole time. Undoable in a tanking situation, as you lose 25% of your health, 25% healing bonus, and a stacking parry buff. at best a tank could swap stances in low damage situations and get out an occasional Fel Cleave....of course if you choose to do that, you're also losing a chance to use inner beast, which is a Damage reduction boost for 5s, and a damage shield. So essentially, that WAR is not playing a tank. a DRK has the advantage of being able to maintain their damage buffs while having their tank stance up at the same time. WAR has to choose.

Unchained = warrior basically in dps stance (5% less dmg buff vs dps stance alone) can do IB has that 25% more hp has that 25% heal increase. Lasts 20sec

Dps stance + convalescent + Thrill of battle = 5% more dmg buff vs unchained. 5% less hp and hp income than with tank stance on, no IB bit fell cleave and still access to 100% chance parry CD (raw intuition) vengeance etc.
Lasts 20 sec

Not only limited to either tank or dps, why not both for a time?

[Temjiu]

Unchained = warrior basically in dps stance (5% less dmg buff vs dps stance alone) can do IB has that 25% more hp has that 25% heal increase. Lasts 20sec

Dps stance + convalescent + Thrill of battle = 5% more dmg buff vs unchained. 5% less hp and hp income than with tank stance on, no IB bit fell cleave and still access to 100% chance parry CD (raw intuition) vengeance etc.
Lasts 20 sec

Not only limited to either tank or dps, why not both for a time?

Sure, why not. Not sure if this thread was for WAR tactics, but some good points. Don't forget though, that Using unchained spends the 5 wrath/abandon you would have otherwise spent on the Fell Cleave (which is what so much of this hubbub is about). Plus you'd also miss out on the stacking crit chance you get from Abandon, in addition to the 5% damage. 10% extra crit isn't something to shake your head at

And I love Convalescence, use it allot...but 120sec CD doesn't necessarily work well with regular consistent DPS. If you stack all that right, you may get close to that DPS...But again, my point wasn't how to maximize WAR DPS, my point what that in order to get 100 DPS ahead of the DRK in those videos, the WAR ran full Deliverance, lost allot of tanking stats (even if he used Conv + thrill, its only 40s out of that 3.5m video) and lost his critical threat bonus.

The point, again, is that the WAR really isn't ahead of the DRK or PLD by any great amount. The DPS they gain comes at a huge sacrifice.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

=D

The Dark Knight also used a trick to get abilities he could never normally get now that Dark Arts is fixed. Lets just say that he got 5 upgraded abilities he would no longer have.

You could macro Dark Arts so it wouldn't go away, and you could burn all of your instant abilities making them do a lot more damage.

It was an exploit, a pretty big one.

Without that exploit they are probably down 200 dps, which is almost on-par if not worse then Paladin.

[Temjiu]

The Dark Knight also used a trick to get abilities he could never normally get now that Dark Arts is fixed. Lets just say that he got 5 upgraded abilities he would no longer have.

You could macro Dark Arts so it wouldn't go away, and you could burn all of your instant abilities making them do a lot more damage.

It was an exploit, a pretty big one.

Without that exploit they are probably down 200 dps, which is almost on-par if not worse then Paladin.

Which confirms my comment that the DRK could use some more tweaking. doesn't change the point of the thread...that the WAR isn't really doing too much DPS. even when they sacrifice most of their ability to tank, they are still 200-400 DPS behind good DPS classes. And I have yet to see a video with PLD damage, so I can't say where they are.

EDIT: I pondered my comment a bit, and realized that overall, I don't know what image the Dev's have for Tanks and their DPS. But then again, no one does. so where should they be? is 200-400 DPS behind DPS classes acceptable? if so, then the WAR is the threshold that tanks should reach for. If DRK is the threshold, then perhaps WAR is doing more then expected? or perhaps they are OK with WAR doing that much as they have to sacrifice their tanking in order to obtain it.

Or, perhaps the DRK really is just in need of some tweaking, as it is a new class...and has only been out for a month. And I have yet to see examples of PDL and their poor DPS. so if anyone has videos for PLD 3.0 I'd love to see em! from what PLD's are saying on the forums their DPS is great...but that could be compared to what they're used to having...who knows.