Why are bards / Mechanists so... Sensitive? <_<

[Eidolon]

I've read through this entire thread and what I've taken away from it is that the OP has an incredibly disgusting and toxic attitude and refuses to even acknowledge the situation BRDs and MCHs are in.

I would've left too, I already feel like I'm bringing groups down and to hear something like that right off the bat is not warranted or fair.

Lol. i don't see too much of an issue with a bard of mechanist. Could they use a slight DPS increase?

Hmmm... I don't balance games. Hard to say. I love the utility that they bring in progression/raids, and I think it's unfortunate that they demand to do the same DPS as those who do not offer such a level of utility. This has always, however, been their demand.

I look forward to the day that SE releases a pure Ranged DPS archer, without support. That will be a DPS who should be competitive with BLM/SMN.

[Kiara1]

My au ra machinist just reached level 51. Cant wait to see the low dps everyones veen on abiut! Abd if they ew me im gonna steal hate!

(Sorry for the misspellings vut they ddi something to forum on mobile phone so its very laggy and impsooible to edit your tezt)

[Lewtskie]

Lol. i don't see too much of an issue with a bard of mechanist. Could they use a slight DPS increase?

Hmmm... I don't balance games. Hard to say. I love the utility that they bring in progression/raids, and I think it's unfortunate that they demand to do the same DPS as those who do not offer such a level of utility. This has always, however, been their demand.

I look forward to the day that SE releases a pure Ranged DPS archer, without support. That will be a DPS who should be competitive with BLM/SMN.

This just shows the extent of your understanding of the issue now and with "support DPS" in general.

Quick synopsis:

- Our utility is just Insurance for people who aren't fully sure of their own abilities. Our usefulness goes only so far when people know how to not make mistakes and manage their resources. If people actually are at that par, bringing a BRD only hurts them. Sure we can throw of a requiem for the nearby mages, but honestly it'd still just be more worth it having another MNK or NIN that can rip godly dmg out their ass just because they felt like it.

- The support DPS stigma has plagued us with no better reasoning than "lol but songs". Those support songs already diminish our dmg when on, we have no combo mechanism w/ increasing potency as other DPS do, AND overall lower weapon dmg than every other DPS. The combo mechanics is justified but obviously with that, we'd never be on par with another DPS who maximizes their shit anyway, but with lower average weapon dmg we definitely have no chance unless we are 100% tryhard 24/7, and again... it's a small chance anyway.

- I can't say for MCH because I've stayed far enough away from it, but for BRD Wanderer's Minuet is a jacked piece of shit atm. It's a stance that has a 3 sec cast time just going into it, neutralizes our mobile advantage for the sake of a dmg bonus that actually already evens out with what our AAs produce, so any actual bonus dmg has to come from the other abilities of which are really only effective when they are off cooldown. But of course we can't just seemlessly jump in and out like a Healer could with Cleric's, no we have to stand there like an idiot for 3 seconds in which of course we're sitting ducks with no dmg output. God's help us if we have to cancel it to dodge anything.

- Oh, I almost forgot to mention that Skill Speed has almost damn near no effect with us, but I don't know if it's just cause SE fucked up on the ratios that hard if it's with our actual class. Honestly, with how shit is going atm, could be a little bit a column A and a little bit of column B, lol.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Support DPS will never find their place in an 8 man party. The DPS Classes this expansion ALSO got new utility whilst keeping their DPS.

Solution:

Make hard 24-man content and give them raid-wide effects, give underpowered classes the same treatment so they are wanted in serious raids.


The new DPS utility moves don't even cost them their damage! They just gain more damage! <3

[Eidolon]

Snippers

yes... i don't understand how good support jobs are to end-game raiding.

Oh, what's this? Your achievements...
In Another Bind I
05/27/2015
25% Echo, i130, and you finally beat T9 - congratulations!

Seriously, I'll go through and break down the rest of your points, one at a time.

#1: This is completely incorrect. On longer endurance fights with no downtime, a Bard is outright vital for your melee DPS who will not be able to sustain their DPS on their own. Requiem further increases the burst phases of key classes (BV's requiem + Raging Strikes BLM = Yes please.) Ballad assists healers who add DPS as that actually diminishes their MP -very- fast to add the extra damage. No, having another MNK or NIN is often not as much a gain as you think they are over a Bard, unless you're at a point where you can burn it -rediculously- fast. Bard's support is part of optimization of all classes.

This issue came up for me in T8 because of the nature of the Avatar. As a dragoon, I would often be running out of TP even popping my invigorates at the perfect time. I even remember my bard *****ing about his DPS loss and trying to say I "Just had too much skillspeed" back then (Which unfortunately was an issue with DRG gear in the 2.2/2.3 loadouts.)

#2: Both Mechanist and Bard are support-DPS. This is the vital spot that garuntees them a slot over every other DPS in a PF. My 8-man dynamics, that require 2tanks/2heals, often tend to be made up of 2 melee (DRG/MNK/NIN), 1 Mage (BLM/SMN), and 1 Support (BRD/MCH.) This creates the ideal scenario of DPS. If they removed your support and made you pure-DPS, my comps would like to become 2 Melee (DRG/MNK/NIN) and 2 Ranged (BLM/SMN/BRD/MCH) which only increases the amount of people you compete for a spot with.

To say the least, in farming content, no one's discincluded bards in the past. I'm interested to see if it continues to be that way. This is, however, why I said I look forward to the day we get a pure-ranged DPS without the support, more akin to a mage in terms of how their role is laid out as opposed to the Bard/Mechanist dynamic right now. If we recieve Ranger, that would be awesome in my book, and it would likely be that you could put them in a spot as the 'mage' of the group (especially wtih their fancy new LB.)

Support is not a bad thing. I played Support in FFXI. I played support in RIFT*. If they had a raw-support here instead of the DPS/Support Hybrid, I'd play that. But Bard here didn't appeal to me in the way that it did in the other games mentioned.

#3 - This is acutally the point I'll concede. I've heard a LOT of talk regarding this, and the issue that removing Auto Attacks from Wanderer's Minute has created for these jobs. It's an unfortuante scenario, and like I said - I don't know how well to balance their damage for this stance. I do think, that at the very least, there is a boon in the fact that they can turn this off and continue to be mobile DPS. I'm looking forward to leveling BRD and testing it out myself, but my focus needs to be on tanks and heals and dps first, not support classes (For me, WAR>DRG>DRK>PLD on my first, then SCH>WHM>AST on my second character)


*Edit: I had put I played a support in TERA-online. What I meant to put was RIFT. My appologies. Too many MMO's. I was a lancer in TERA-online. Amani for life o/

Edit2:

Support DPS will never find their place in an 8 man party. The DPS Classes this expansion ALSO got new utility whilst keeping their DPS.

Solution:

Make hard 24-man content and give them raid-wide effects, give underpowered classes the same treatment so they are wanted in serious raids.


The new DPS utility moves don't even cost them their damage! They just gain more damage! <3

Support-DPS will always have a place in raid content. o_o Always. There will never be a time people do not take support-DPS, especially when they area learning. I will admit, you might be able to drop the support DPS once you've mastered the fights.

However, I want to cite two sources, from different places:

Bismark-EX, order of the blue garter, has a Bard in their Clear video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udylYA0f-d4

Mister Happy Gaming (GOD I hate this guy), Ravana-EX clear video, showing 1-2 bards at any time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_q3Y5RYr_w

Willing to bet when MTQ starts posting they'll likely have a support-DPS too. =/

Edit3:

It's not about us doing the same DPS as you guys, it's about us doing enough to still be a useful party member with that support. Right now, if Savage was out and you had a bard/machinist in your static but couldn't reach the DPS check with them even if they did their rotation good and knew when to give support would you keep them? Probably not, especially if you have a better chance of just barely burning through the content by over dps'ing it with another DPS or by having that person change their job just because of the low output.

We need to reach a certain amount of DPS that's acceptable for these things and when we're tracking behind in numbers by a lot compared to every other job then it's worrisome and prompts people to want changes.

I personally wouldn't of been ok staying with someone who says that at the beginning of a run either by the way, I probably wouldn't instantly leave but I'd be super wary of them and it wouldn't give me the greatest first impressions of my party members for that run... especially when they could just be gawking at my DPS numbers for all I know with that boot button on the side just waiting...

sadly we can't really prove it one way or another. There are too many insubstantiated assumptions you're throwing out here. When a group can't clear a DPS check, they don't purely look at the DPS numbers. Yes, that is one factor - is everyone performing to the maximum their job can provide? did we have any deaths? Was there anything we could've done different to push more DPS? Did everyone use pots, food, etc? There are more facts than just a base set of numbers.

If someone dies because, say, the healer went OoM and couldn't heal them, a bard could've played ballad to restore MP to save them. Are you going to kick your healer because they ran out of MP in a heal-intensive fight?

If someone runs out of TP, the bard could play Paeoen to keep them going. Are you going to kick them all so you can set up a chain of Ninja's goading eachother for more TP without paeon?

If a tank dies to a tank buster attack once, are you going to assume he's trash and kick him from the party?

Your assumption that parties will zero in on bards just because they are the "Lowest" is the part where our opinions diverge completely. A real raiding progression group is smart enough to look at more. They look at the necessity of the job. What it provides. What it can do for the party. If progression finds it doesn't need a bard's support? Then that is when they might replace them for a stronger DPS. And I stress might.



((Posting limit has been reached! Probably gonna stop replying to anything from this point o/ take care peeps.)

[Lillia]

Lol. i don't see too much of an issue with a bard of mechanist. Could they use a slight DPS increase?

Hmmm... I don't balance games. Hard to say. I love the utility that they bring in progression/raids, and I think it's unfortunate that they demand to do the same DPS as those who do not offer such a level of utility. This has always, however, been their demand.

I look forward to the day that SE releases a pure Ranged DPS archer, without support. That will be a DPS who should be competitive with BLM/SMN.

It's not about us doing the same DPS as you guys, it's about us doing enough to still be a useful party member with that support. Right now, if Savage was out and you had a bard/machinist in your static but couldn't reach the DPS check with them even if they did their rotation good and knew when to give support would you keep them? Probably not, especially if you have a better chance of just barely burning through the content by over dps'ing it with another DPS or by having that person change their job just because of the low output.

We need to reach a certain amount of DPS that's acceptable for these things and when we're tracking behind in numbers by a lot compared to every other job then it's worrisome and prompts people to want changes.

I personally wouldn't of been ok staying with someone who says that at the beginning of a run either by the way, I probably wouldn't instantly leave but I'd be super wary of them and it wouldn't give me the greatest first impressions of my party members for that run... especially when they could just be gawking at my DPS numbers for all I know with that boot button on the side just waiting...

[Lewtskie]

I understand you'll see nothing but my piss poor raiding history and think I don't understand, but I've so many friends who have been where I haven't and done it all that it just makes me salty to no end, lol.

#1 That TP you needed then and there could have easily been supplied by a NIN while Invig was down. When DPS are performing at their Maximum then there is no need for a Healer to DPS so aggressively as well. No fight will ever have that definitive setup where nothing else works. There's always ways around that may or may not prove to be better, but it certainly shows your reliance on BRD won't always be an absolute necessity.

#2 This is the shit we deal with. You don't give an explanation other than "because you are support" and "it's how we do things" even though nothing in the game says we are 'support' in role. And that support isn't a constant. It only exists when need demands. So when there is no need for that support, why must we suffer damage-wise regardless? And come with new kits, the ever present 'this is support/this is not support' boundary grows ever thin. Many jobs are collecting ways of providing 'support' with no diminish to their kit.

That extra slot you hold for a 'support' can easily be supplemented with another DPS who's design best excels in the given fight. If you are bum-rushing singular targets like mad, another NIN to give you TP and provide increased overall DMG for everyone would suit them. Needing AoE clear will see to a BLM who would never have issues sustaining themselves.

It pleases me greatly to hear that you will always provide a slot for us in your roster. But it's just that the reality is we really aren't absolutely needed, and when we aren't needed we can be so easily be replaced right now it is rather depressing. They wanted to try and rectify this with Minuet, but they did so haphazardly that it just pours salt in the wounds. I'd honestly be better had I leveled something else, lol, but I hate just abandoning this job. I hate to feel like I just gave up and it's the Job the appeals the most to me aesthetically.

[codofwisdom]

I decided, when I started this game, to main Bard. I didn't want to be pure DPS; I wanted to support.
Right now, I'm basically stuck on Bismark, because of the DPS check.
I hear from others about how easy it is, how they got through it on the second try. I have been at this for 3 days.
I'm level 57, iLevel 137 (highest available is 142), and I can't help but feel responsible.
It doesn't help that each party I've been in has had 2 bards (me and another one) or a Machinist.

The problem is that the support skills we have as Bards do not give sufficient compensation for the lost DPS. Unless we're in a party made up entirely of magic users, of course. If only there was a Physical Foes Requiem....

I've come to terms with the fact that my class is currently lacking. Here's hoping they adjust it well. Of course, it could be that I just suck. But if that's the case, I'm sorry to say I don't see how I can improve upon my current methodology.

EDIT: In short, OP, it's because Bard's are a DPS class, and can't DPS. Dragoons might be glass cannons, but at least they're cannons. It'd be like a Tank with 8,000 max HP. Might be because we aren't specialized, but that's what Mechanist is, and they're not fairing much better.

[Delorean]

As a bard, "Ew Bard" is like adding fuel to the fire right now because we are in need of serious fixes. Machinist is likely no different.
So I can understand their wish to not deal with the drama, even if it was intended as a joke.

well it's not like dragoons only spent an entire expansion of dying just because they had lower magic defense than everyone else while being the most frustrating DPS class to play

oh wait, they did

i mean some of them are still dying and winning rolls on loot just because they are bad and unreasonably lucky, but that is beside the point

[Lillia]

snip

Well I admit, I was using the 'perfect' scenario that I put us in and you have a point, we don't know if we'll be pushed out of Alex until we know the DPS check... but it does sting to have one out of 5 of our new skills to show any useful changes and see us tracking as far back as we do.... WM only increases my DoTs dmg by around 100 and any big attack that I was amazed by in the lower levels quickly got out done by the current numbers I do with AA in between my skills in a faster pace of succession.

It also bothers when we're not added into certain other contents because of our DPS, those BEX or RaEX runs with 2 bards and 2 machinist or 3 bard/machinst with 1 blm/smn etc. :/

( I just flashed back to the people who'd ditch Ifrit HM groups because no caster for LB..... )

snip

Also their positional moves at the time put them in awkward positions for maximum DPS, now that is fixed though and they can get the dmg increase buff without flanking plus have better positional moves for both sides and behind. :x

(I actually freakin love dragoons who don't die a lot... we work so well together because of the way they can support bards, I think it's really awesome)