Why are bards / Mechanists so... Sensitive? <_<

[Lillia]

I don't know if Bards' dps is supposed to be higher since they bring some awesome utility...

But when I see my DRK offtank with STR accessories doing more dps than a similarily geared MCH (i179) in Ravana EX over the course of 5-7 minute tries, I think there is a problem lol And I was with 35 bonus attribues in VIT lol

It should be higher for MCH using barrel and BRD when in minuet I think but... it's going to be difficult to balance how high and what should be changed exactly without having the bards and machinist being too OP, That is why SE wants to wait till Alex for major changes.

[Lewtskie]

I don't know if Bards' dps is supposed to be higher since they bring some awesome utility...

Again, this confuses me. We bring awesome utility, when we actually have a need for bringing that utility.

No one is explaining why we have to have lower average Weapon dmg other than the fact that at some point we maybe will play a song when there's need for one.

Even if we had the same weapon dmg as a DRG, we'd obviously never actually do the same overall dmg output as a DRG. Because we maintain a steady mid-point while being able to maintain movement, with spikes every so often through use of cooldowns. They, on the other hand, have structured combos with increasing potency. Up until now and outside Minuet, the only WS we have that exceeds 150 Potency is Misery's End, which is a WS only used in the final Stretch.

So their low-point is just about the same as our constant output and a high-point that can vastly exceed what we would do. We could never have that because that's the point that would be broken. That is totally justified.

But when playing a song we take another hit to our DMG. It's now at 15% but it used to be at 20. So not only do we do less dmg when not even providing that awesome utility, but when we do, we deal even less. And it makes sense to deal less when we have to provide support. It doesn't make sense that we deal less constantly if only because we MIGHT use a song. Would it not make sense to instead take whatever % of dmg difference already lies in our weapon dmg and just add it to the song's reduction?

[Lillia]

@Lewtskie; We actually may do more than them because we can move and attack while going to wherever we need to go as mechanics are taking place when minuet is off so that adds up to DPS for us because we have less downtime compared to when they have to run to perform the mechanic and run back to continue attacking. Though I'd like to see weapon raised too but not to the same numbers of DRG or the rest of the physical DPS, I think it should be a bit lower but not trail behind as much as it does right now.

@BlaiseArath; Sorry but I'd have to disagree with you. You wouldn't introduce yourself to a static like that would you? Would you introduce yourself to a person of interest or importance to you like that? I for one would never do such things.

So why should it be any different just because they are DF strangers? It's just common courtesy that people should have for each other even inside of a video game. Those people had done nothing to deserve that particular joke towards them from what I've read on the OP's part of this.

I could see if he was familiar with them and it was a running gag as friends but they didn't know him from a hole in the wall so they probably didn't favor his humor as much as he seems to have.

[stuscott]

No one is explaining why we have to have lower average Weapon dmg other than the fact that at some point we maybe will play a song when there's need for one.

We have lower WD than the other classes because ours was nerfed in 2.1 due to the fact that in 2.0 Coil, other classes were being excluded and groups were taking Bards in places of other roles because we had matching WD, mobility, and no penalties to songs. Groups would stack bards, rotate songs, and the class was kind of OP at that point. That brought the damage penalties to songs and the nerfs to weapon damage, making the class sacrifice damage for mobility.

[Warlyx]

We have lower WD than the other classes because ours was nerfed in 2.1 due to the fact that in 2.0 Coil, other classes were being excluded and groups were taking Bards in places of other roles because we had matching WD, mobility, and no penalties to songs. Groups would stack bards, rotate songs, and the class was kind of OP at that point. That brought the damage penalties to songs and the nerfs to weapon damage, making the class sacrifice damage for mobility.

and here we are staring at WM and GB.....wondering wth ?

[QiLymePye]

We have lower WD than the other classes because ours was nerfed in 2.1 due to the fact that in 2.0 Coil, other classes were being excluded and groups were taking Bards in places of other roles because we had matching WD, mobility, and no penalties to songs. Groups would stack bards, rotate songs, and the class was kind of OP at that point. That brought the damage penalties to songs and the nerfs to weapon damage, making the class sacrifice damage for mobility.

See i can understand that. Its just they nerfed it, then didn't scale it properly when patching and upgrading all the classes later on. I understand the idea behind WM. But I think with BRD(and MCH), even though this is a fantasy game, they might have to use some sort or real world physics for these jobs to balance them. Here's an example:

BRD- Mobility is their main bonus in this game, but as a DPS, we want to feel like we are hitting something. So I think they should make their dmg increase/decrease be based off of how it would be if you were physically playing the class. I think of most fantasy movies/novels/anime. Normally, archers can shoot while moving. We can agree to that. We also know that the longer an archer focuses/concentrates/pull back, the stronger and more precise the shot is. Now, WM has the right idea. When in that stance, I agree that AA should stop. If I'm aiming/focusing more, I'm not firing off as many shots. But my attack potency and/or critical chance for ALL of my skills should significantly increase.

Now some of you will say "that still will make BRD OP and their DPS shouldn't even match melee DPS. This is where i agree and I don't agree. Yes, as the job is right now, it shouldn't be even with melee. But i think thats because the positive would still outweigh the negative. So lets add another snippet that would not only add some variety, spice, and challenge to the class/job, but add even more utility besides popping a song. my solution, add a debuff that reduces def while in WM along side of decrease mobility. Just like a real archer. If Im standing still focusing my power for a time, taking more time to aim and standing still while I do so, you best believe I'm gonna have a hard time defending myself. Either I do it very sparingly, time it, or end up having to move which cancels out my WM. I will let someone else come up with the potency number increase and the def debuff number while in stance, but this gives the person playing BRD options to increase DPS with consequences.

MCH- same thing, use some real world physics as a basis. When I think of a person using guns, they are not pulling back on a string like BRD, so standing still wouldn't increase DPS as much. But, the only time I would see someone standing still with a gun while firing is either sniping or in full auto mode. With MCH, it should be quantity of attacks.
I don't know how they could incorporate it into the game, but like I said about an archer, when I think of a person using a gun, I think about them pulling off shots faster than any other class, especially archer. They can keep their low potency, but their cool down for their weapon skills should be faster than 2.55. Im thinking when you use ammo, not only is your combo chance higher, but the speed in which you can use the 2.55 weapon skills should be faster. Or even just by default have MCH AA happen twice as fast as everybody else. Its a gun for crying out loud. And if they have to stand still using the gauss barrel (is that whats its called?), take away mobility and quantity of attacks but increase critical chance and lower defense will standing still.

I also can kinda understand why SE added casting time to those new abilities. I have a better idea concerning that as well. Instead of the casting time(I think added to keep from spam switching) Why not just take away cast time BUT when you come out of the stance whether you move or cxl stance, infect the player with heavy for about 5 sec which reduces player movement speed by 10-20 % (Whichever number is more feasible). Once again, If ive been standing still as a brd or mch (think like being prone as a sniper) might take me a few seconds to get up to speed to run.

All of this would give the player the one thing the BRD/MCH players are wanting. Choice. Let the onus be on the player, giving them the option to weigh sacrificing mobility for DPS, which is my idea of having utility, instead of having it forced on them.

So....what do you guys think? Maybe SE will look into something like this?

[BlaiseArath]

Not touching on the DRG topic, I just want to address the OP. No, You did absolutely nothing wrong in the situation you described, and yes, those people were being greatly oversensitive regardless of the current situation of BRD/MCN. I'd say don't judge them harshly because of it but honestly you'll never see them again most likely.

Now, before anyone goes and assumes this or that... I'm not talking about >legit< insults here, as that is always annoying... But not jokes... welcome to being an adult... If you're not sure if someone is joking or not the proper reaction is never "Be a triggered baby and ragequit", because in that situation, the only loser will be you.

[Hyunckel]

In any case, as someone who played DRG when all the hype was all over NIN & MNK (loldrg gtfo pls)...

I give my strong support to BRDs & MCHs, if only cause I find both jobs pretty cool on the concept arts and lores.

[BlaiseArath]

@BlaiseArath; Sorry but I'd have to disagree with you. You wouldn't introduce yourself to a static like that would you? Would you introduce yourself to a person of interest or importance to you like that? I for one would never do such things.

So why should it be any different just because they are DF strangers? It's just common courtesy that people should have for each other even inside of a video game. Those people had done nothing to deserve that particular joke towards them from what I've read on the OP's part of this.

I could see if he was familiar with them and it was a running gag as friends but they probably didn't know him from a hole in the wall so they probably didn't favor his humor as much as he seems to have.

You're free to disagree and I appreciate you expressing a dissenting opinion, but I maintain my position though I can appreciate where you're coming from. The way I see it, not law, that If people can't take a joke its their problem, not the OPs or mine. I would announce it was a joke if it sounds like someone took offence to it, but I wouldn't apologize for it nor would I take it back. In most cases, Offense is taken, not given. If I have given no offense, they're free to take what they want but I won't apologize for it.

This is mostly in regards to the OPs situation. There are clearly hurtful jokes that are in bad tast, and statements that may be far to overly insulting to be a joke and people hide behind "Its a joke" when called out... These types of things DO exist, but I'm not discussing a "slippery slope" argument of what could be said that would be going too far because everyone will draw the lines differently. Its about what the OP said, and its clearly not meant as a purposefully hurtful or insulting message.

But to the question of yours, though It might be lost on some people... if I joined a static, its best to get out of the way that I am a quirky person who enjoys a joke, quip, or sarcastic comment here or there. I do try not to be directly hurtful because thats called "being a decent human being".... but If they can't handle a joke or two here and there, not always super "PC", then yah, peace right the f**k out I'll find a group who appreciates a good joke and can relax without taking offense to everything because they can't deal with the fact their favorite job might not be the best in the world. I played THF in FFXI for over 11 years, It was literally the red headed step child of FFXI, it sucked at about everything as was treating as a cheap whore to get more drops from enemies... Yah, It gets annoying dealing with truly ignorant people but when It came to dealing with some of the jokes/insults, I recognize the difference between the two, One I laugh at, the other I ignore. adulthood.

Whenever I was met with a doubter of THF in XI, it just became my goal to show them how impressive the job could be. I never cried foul, I just became that shining example of what a good THF could be. I always aspired too at least, and looked up to those in the community doing the same.

Still If you (not you you, but you in general tersm) can't take a joke you're not someone I want to be friends with anyway. I don't find good company with people who are the "Microaggression" overly sensitive politically correct type who are triggered by clapping hands, So in my eyes, if I made a joke and someone took offence and left? They did me a favor.

I don't make insulting jokes as a matter of course, mind you, but I will make jokes, and usually, I get positive reactions. This isn't a bad thing and again I will say, OP, you have done absolutely nothing wrong.

[Lillia]

snip

Thanks for being so polite about it and I see what you're trying to say but unless the people are told that hes someone who likes to joke in that manner beforehand or this is expressed to them, they have no way of possibly knowing so while I totally get it I just can't bring myself to fully see it that way. However I still appreciate the way you held yourself in your reply and I respect your opinion as you respected my own.