Clearing Confusion - MMORPG differentiation

[Jennestia]

Whenever someone brings up FFXI people immediately thinks they want a clone of FFXI and that "Bawww FFXIV is supposed to be different go back to XI!!!!1".

The thing is, while FFXIV is supposed to be different, it almost died a month after released because it was trying to be different for the sake of being different. Before I go into examples here's the basic systems of FFXI for those that don't know:

-Search system
e.g /sea jennestia will bring up my character name, location and a search comment if I set it and also allow you to invite if lfg and in same region/send a tell/friend request.

The search system of FFXI was extremely basic though rarely even used in MMOs as they typically used a different type of search, however they also worked very fluidly.

-Linkshell Management
e.g kick/promote/set linkshell message etc. Basic foundation system.

-Client side interface.
Self Explanatory.

That's just a few things foundation wise that XIV could have benefited from, yet people go into a hissy fit simply because FFXI had it, which is basically the next "Why you gotta bring up WoW?" Since it's apparently too much to expect SE to remember the basics after 10 years from another Final Fantasy MMO they've done.

XIV's foundation lays as follows:

-Serverside interface
All this does is hinder the game's foundation.

-Linkshell management
Very Limited and will eventually expand.

-Recruit system/"new lfg system"
Some say it's better, but it's still restrictive in implementation, still no exact "Look at me I'm looking for a party!" like with XI yet.

Basically, they went with the route of a serverside interface which no other MMO has more than likely to try to curb RMT, however it also hinders progression of basic features.

Now, people say FFXIV is supposed to be a different game and that the only similarties to FFXI should end at the races, that's cool, however here are my examples of what it means to be "different":

Rift

It's a blatant WoW clone, however it's main feature, Rifts, are something different from WoW but Rift also built off of the foundation WoW laid.

Eden Eternal

A fairly newish MMORPG and also one of the few that allows you to job change at will on the same character, it's actually fairly close to how FFXI is, but it's layout and progression is, you guessed it, built on the foundation of other MMOs, e.g Quest based progression, tons of management tools etc.

Iris

Similar to Eden Eternal, but also different in it's own way. However yet again, built on the foundation already laid by MMOs.

Final Fantasy XIV

Threw out everything FFXI laid and pretty much any other MMO foundation wise, also released unfinished. The only difference was the ability to cross class abilities which isn't even unique anymore as Eden Eternal allows as such (and does it a bit better actually in some instances).

The main thing about "being different" is taking what works and building off of it, not throwing it out and reinventing the wheel as people call it. So every time it gets brought up that FFXIV is "supposed to be a different game", that's no excuse for the bad design decisions or the fact the game almost fell into a void a month after release and they later had to scramble to save it. Being different generally means building off of what works and taking your own spin to it. Another good example is Sci-fi, there's Star Wars and Star Trek, both have similarities but both are also very different however both are of the same genre.

[Kopuno]

Ahmen! In reality what people don't understand is, much like FFXI, XIV will not be a huge hit on several standing points, and worse then most cases in XI. SE decided that they would pretty much say FU XI loyal fan base and try to win the WoW crowd. The WoW crowd wants nothing to do with XIV as WoW/Rifts/<Theme Park MMO here> already does it so much better. I have no idea why people would not want XIV more like XI (within reason) as it would at least draw in the XI crowd.

The game will not survive in the long run otherwise. As the way it stands now most of the XI crowd wants nothing to do with either. I'm a huge FF and XI fan myself, invested 7 years into the latter and remember playing FF1 when it was part of the nintendo set. XIV does have some of the best character designs, models in any MMO to date, but.. Pretty looks will not keep players. SE needs to figure out who they want, there loyal fans or there dime a dozen, play for a month and quit crowd. Just my 2 cents.

[TonyMontana]

Whenever someone brings up FFXI people immediately thinks they want a clone of FFXI and that "Bawww FFXIV is supposed to be different go back to XI!!!!1".

The thing is, while FFXIV is supposed to be different, it almost died a month after released because it was trying to be different for the sake of being different. Before I go into examples here's the basic systems of FFXI for those that don't know:

-Search system
e.g /sea jennestia will bring up my character name, location and a search comment if I set it and also allow you to invite if lfg and in same region/send a tell/friend request.

The search system of FFXI was extremely basic though rarely even used in MMOs as they typically used a different type of search, however they also worked very fluidly.

-Linkshell Management
e.g kick/promote/set linkshell message etc. Basic foundation system.

-Client side interface.
Self Explanatory.

That's just a few things foundation wise that XIV could have benefited from, yet people go into a hissy fit simply because FFXI had it, which is basically the next "Why you gotta bring up WoW?" Since it's apparently too much to expect SE to remember the basics after 10 years from another Final Fantasy MMO they've done.

XIV's foundation lays as follows:

-Serverside interface
All this does is hinder the game's foundation.

-Linkshell management
Very Limited and will eventually expand.

-Recruit system/"new lfg system"
Some say it's better, but it's still restrictive in implementation, still no exact "Look at me I'm looking for a party!" like with XI yet.

Basically, they went with the route of a serverside interface which no other MMO has more than likely to try to curb RMT, however it also hinders progression of basic features.

Now, people say FFXIV is supposed to be a different game and that the only similarties to FFXI should end at the races, that's cool, however here are my examples of what it means to be "different":

Rift

It's a blatant WoW clone, however it's main feature, Rifts, are something different from WoW but Rift also built off of the foundation WoW laid.

Eden Eternal

A fairly newish MMORPG and also one of the few that allows you to job change at will on the same character, it's actually fairly close to how FFXI is, but it's layout and progression is, you guessed it, built on the foundation of other MMOs, e.g Quest based progression, tons of management tools etc.

Iris

Similar to Eden Eternal, but also different in it's own way. However yet again, built on the foundation already laid by MMOs.

Final Fantasy XIV

Threw out everything FFXI laid and pretty much any other MMO foundation wise, also released unfinished. The only difference was the ability to cross class abilities which isn't even unique anymore as Eden Eternal allows as such (and does it a bit better actually in some instances).

The main thing about "being different" is taking what works and building off of it, not throwing it out and reinventing the wheel as people call it. So every time it gets brought up that FFXIV is "supposed to be a different game", that's no excuse for the bad design decisions or the fact the game almost fell into a void a month after release and they later had to scramble to save it. Being different generally means building off of what works and taking your own spin to it. Another good example is Sci-fi, there's Star Wars and Star Trek, both have similarities but both are also very different however both are of the same genre.

I cant believe we see eye to eye on something!

[Isaveron]

The thing is, while FFXIV is supposed to be different, it almost died a month after released because it was trying to be different for the sake of being different.

No, it almost died because it was a broken mess of a game that still needed another year or so of development. It being different had nothing to do with this.

[Kopuno]

No, it almost died because it was a broken mess of a game that still needed another year or so of development. It being different had nothing to do with this.

Yet if XIV had simply copy/pasted the most basic's of XI, perhaps XIV would not have been so "broken".

[Reaujien]

Whenever someone brings up FFXI people immediately thinks they want a clone of FFXI and that "Bawww FFXIV is supposed to be different go back to XI!!!!1".

Though I think it is possible that there exist a few people who would rather want a clone of FFXI, however, I think you're absolutely right that people often mistake the point/intentions of other peoples' posts/comments when they bring up anything from FFXI (and thus make the "intelligent" reply such as the example you provided).

Another good example is Sci-fi, there's Star Wars and Star Trek, both have similarities but both are also very different however both are of the same genre.

Even going further with what you said -

Star Wars: How many "Star Wars games" have there been? They all have the same Star Wars look and feel to them - that is, what a fan of Star Wars would expect to have in a "Star Wars game" - but yet they are different games. They did not reinvent the lightsabre, or reinvent the Jedi, or reinvent the Sith, etc. etc. They took what was good - what was solid - and either improved upon that or created a new story/gameplay built around that.

Star Trek: Think of the numerous and successful spin-offs, movies, and games of the original Star Trek TV series that have been created. They're all different - different stories, different characters, different species, different technologies... hell even different eras in time! - but yet they're all unarguably and indistinguishably Star Trek at the core.

[Arcell]

I posted this in response to another of your posts Jennestia:

Personally I'm not a big fan of XI. Whenever someone says "Let's implement this from XI because XI did it!" I cringe a little. Personally, I'd rather they take the good ideas from XI and improve upon them for this game. I'm sure /sea all was a great feature, but I'm also sure it was far from perfect. I'm fine with implementing shit that worked from XI as long as it's better than it was back then.

Still gonna stand by it. As stated above, I'm sure XI (as well as other games) have good systems that XIV could use. However if we go that route I'd like to see the dev team improve upon them instead of a boring, lazy copy/paste of systems.

[Arcell]

Even going further with what you said -

Star Wars: How many "Star Wars games" have there been? They all have the same Star Wars look and feel to them - that is, what a fan of Star Wars would expect to have in a "Star Wars game" - but yet they are different games. They did not reinvent the lightsabre, or reinvent the Jedi, or reinvent the Sith, etc. etc. They took what was good - what was solid - and either improved upon that or created a new story/gameplay built around that.

The problem with the Star Wars argument is that it all takes place in the same universe. Final Fantasy games generally do not take place on the same world. We don't know any further out than that but at the very least, they are not connected. There are a few exceptions but FFXIV is not one of them. And yes I know what you're going to say next, "What about the FF standards?" True, Final Fantasy does have some standards (Chocobos, melee and magic, airships, classes/jobs, etc...). However there are Final Fantasy games with drastic differences in setting and general time period/technological advancement. Each Final Fantasy world generally has its own variation on the things that are standard to Final Fantasy.

[Reaujien]

The problem with the Star Wars argument is that it all takes place in the same universe.

I wasn't attempting to formulate an argument though. I was only further adding on what the OP provided as examples to illustrate that even in those individual series/themes there have been many installations and recreations that despite the various differences and similarities of each there is a "feeling" that persists within each individual installation and recreation together - whether or not they were meant to be direct sequels of one another or not.

Much like FF titles; they have their differences and their similarities - sometimes they're different in the same way (e.g., always being a new world and/or new universe) and sometimes they're similar in different ways (e.g., some have chocobos that can help you in battle, while others can only help you get from point 'A' to point 'B'.). Even so, some are completely different stories being only related by familiar content from previous titles, while others are direct sequels but still having different new additions or changes to them.

There's a... Star Trek "feel", a.... Star Wars "feel", a... Final Fantasy "feel", and though there's little doubt that fans for either could probably go to great lengths in attempting to explain their interpretation(s) of what this "feel" is, there exists one regardless. That's all I was trying to illustrate with the ST/SW examples.

[Jennestia]

No, it almost died because it was a broken mess of a game that still needed another year or so of development. It being different had nothing to do with this.

Given another year of development it would have still been plagued with foundational issues because it already went against the basic systems at even "half" completion.

It being different for the sake of being different was indeed the problem, trust me. Games like Iris, Eden Eternal, Rusty Hearts etc are all basic MMORPGs, yet they never suffered the same "oh this horrible /quit" after 1 month because they each had a solid foundation, even in Beta.

XIV was in an identity crisis through the final beta phases and launch, it's no secret it released far too soon given almost no titles for the 2010-2011 year they were banking on XIV's success, but we can't deny that there were a lot of bad design choices that would have continued through another year or two of development.

The thing is, there was nothing wrong with using the basics and expanding them, that's why the games that are doing well today are indeed doing well.

Even TERA is trying to rip off Rift and Aion in order to save itself and that game launched beautifully though heavily under financial expectations (30 million+ short, so investors are pissy.)