[dev 1032] Alternative to Specialization, a FFT based system

[Azure_Heaven]

First i just want to say, that I respect the Specialization system developed by Kurokikaze in the other thread. I think it has a lot of merit and I would not be disappointed to play a game w that system.

My major issue (if u can call it that) with a specialization system, is that it feels too much like other MMO systems, when Final Fantasy already has a great system that it can turn to that exists in its only franchise. With that i present:

FFT style system in FFXIV

So currently, there is a large amount of people that have put forth ideas about a new job/class system in FFXIV. A heavily favoured one that is currently being discussed is the Specialization system, which would allow players to level “basic” jobs/classes (the one currently available to players) and then undergo quests that would allow them to make available talent trees (or pools/orbs/grids/etc) to specialize into an “advanced” job.

While these systems are well thought-out and impressive, I think there is a major flaw in them. In that,
a) players lose the ability to keep leveling their “basis” job without the use of an advanced job, i.e. players can no longer realistically level GLD or CON, they must become GLD/PLD or GLD/DRK and CON/WHM or CON/BLM. While this is not really a flaw, it does limit the way players can play, which is against the spirit of FF games in general.
b) Basic classes are not longer jobs, they become obstacles. They are things a player “has” to deal with for 10, 20, or 30 levels until they can become their “real” jobs/classes. Just like walking somewhere can be seen as an “obstacle” for lower level players before they can gain access to “mounts”, the basic jobs become “obstacles” before the player can gain access to the “real” jobs/classes.

How will a FFT system work in FFXIV?

Currently, FFXIV has two leveling systems in place; Physical level and Class level. For a FFT system to work, unfortunately, physical level will have to be erased. As it stands, the physical level, in my opinion, is unnecessary and burdensome. The stat customization system has made stats fairly unnecessary, to the point where they don’t matter and the elemental system can be incorporated into the class level system.

The armoury/class system will have to be altered slightly to work with the new system, but the changes will be mostly cosmetic. Classes/Jobs will have to be limited to only 1 weapon type, unlike currently, where some classes/jobs have more than one type available, i.e. GLD has longsword, short sword, and dagger. In the new system GLD will be limited to the gladius (or short-sword) type weapons.

The current action/trait equipping and point system will also be able to stay, though some major changes to the affinity system will have to take place, as will the number and variety of skills available to each class/job, as many of the skills currently available will be better suited to some of the new “advanced” classes. New skills and traits will need to be developed for the basic classes as replacements.

In essence how the FFT system would work is fairly simple but allows for much complexity and player choice. Players start with 7 available classes/jobs: the ones currently available under the DoM and DoW titles, GLD, MRD, THM, CON, LNC, ARC, and PUG (in this discussion I am limiting myself to just the DoM and DoW jobs, but it can easily be expanded to include the DoL and DoH jobs as well, such as DRG needing LNC and the future job Shepard or Chemist needing Archer and Alchemy etc). These classes/jobs can be titled “basic” but they will be as full-fledged and viable as the more “advanced” jobs.

When players gain a pre-set level and combination of the basic jobs, they make available quests to unlock new jobs/class options. The combination and level will obviously depend on the job and current system. Due to the fact that the combination of factors will differ from job to job, I believe it will be easier for the target mechanism to be an XP target displayed in levels. To illustrate, for a player to unlock the MNK job/class, they will have to level their PUG to level 30 only, while a player wanting to unlock PLD will have to level their GLD to 20 and their CON to 20. These targets should aim to be relatively identical in XP value (obviously the numbers given above are made up and will need to be examined more closely to be set in stone). The goal is to make the advanced jobs require relatively identical amounts of time and effort to make available.

After the player has undergone the task of completing the quest, the new job is treated exactly like the basic jobs when the player started. The jobs are set to level one and the player must level them individually.

So some examples of classes that can be made available:

GLD + CON = PLD
GLD + MRD = Berserker
PUG + LNC = THF
MRD + ARC = Pirate
THM + CON = RDM

But also, there can be classes made available from only single class:

PUG @# rank = MNK
ARC @# rank = RNG
LNC @# rank = DRG

Again, these are just ideas for the combinations, the actual classes/ranks that are needed could be anything; it’s the beauty of this system, an almost limitless (in theory anyways) combination of ranks and classes/jobs to create more classes/jobs.

One side note, to help explain how some “advanced” jobs need only 1 job to unlock and others may need 2 or 3. For this to work and yet stay fair for the players, it would have to work something like this. For example (again numbers are just made up to illustrate my point, not set in stone) PLD needs ranks in CON and GLD but MNK only needs ranks in PUG. To make it fair MNK would need rank 30 in PUG (which takes 40k xp {again, numbers are made up}) so PLD needs rank 20 in GLD (20k xp) and CON (20k xp). So in the end, player #1 who wanted MNK and player #2 who wanted PLD needed to put in the same amount of work (getting 40k xp) but they had to do it in different ways.

Actions/Traits

Currently, FFXIV has an action/trait system that allows players to equip different skills from different jobs. This system could be transferred to the FFT style system with some changes to the affinity mechanic.
Jobs that are interconnected would result in having higher affinities to skills than to jobs they are not connected too. Confusing? Ok, lets use an example to illustrate this principle.
Say a job has 100 affinity to skills of their own (i.e. GLD has 100 affinity to their own skills). Say a job has 50 affinity to skills that are not their own (i.e. GLD has 50 affinity to skills from CON). Now say person #1 levels unlocks PLD, which requires GLD and CON, so it is connected to GLD and CON. When player #1 plays as a PLD, he has the following affinity:

100 affinity to PLD abilities
75 affinity to GLD and CON abilities
50 affinity to abilities from another job/class. (Again, before trolls come rampaging, these numbers are just made up to use as an example, the actual values will need to be tested).

Now, you may ask, what about if player #1 wants to play as GLD? He would have the following affinity:

100 affinity to GLD abilities
75 affinity to PLD abilities (and say Berserker if he had unlocked it and leveled it)
50 affinity to CON and all others jobs/classes

So by connected, this system would mean a direct connection, not an indirect connection, as seen with the GLD. GLD is indirectly connected to CON by PLD, but it has no affect on affinity.

Why set affinity up like this? To help keep the flavour of each job. What’s the point of playing as a PLD, if as a GLD I can use all the PLD abilities equally as well? Not only that, it also helps let players keep some of the customization that was intended in the Armoury system.
Now my PLD isn’t limited to just being a tank, I could load up on CON abilities and play him as a healer who can deal some melee damage or load him up w GLD abilities to make him more a DD with some back-up healing. Obviously, some skills and traits will be restricted to being equipped only as the main job/class. Some of the GLD skill will only be available if I’m playing a GLD. And some skills will be completely locked off in specific combinations; so no Fire, Thunder from CON as a PLD. Locking out these abilities will not be that hard, as most magic in the game already belongs to an element, it would be easy to say PLD can only use magic that belongs to the white magic element (cant remember if its astral or umbral).

(silly character limit, pro/con on next post)

[Azure_Heaven]

So how is the FFT style system different from the specialization system?

The FFT system has pros and cons like any other system would have, no system will work perfectly; people will find things they like and dislike about anything man-made. No system will be able to incorporate everything and make everyone happy.

Pros
-the “basic” classes/jobs are still viable choices; they are not longer just paths to some other end, they are an end in-and-of-themselves. At level 50 or 60 or 70, people will not just be GLD/PLD or GLD/DRK but will be either GLD or PLD or DRK (or all 3 if they want to level them all high).
For instance, PLD uses a block mechanic to tank and self heals using mana, while GLD uses a Parry mechanic and group buffs using CDs. So both are tanks, but do it in different ways and therefore have different flavours to them.

-Opens up more lore/player opportunities for the classes/jobs. With a specialization system, GLD are forced to become “holy warriors” or “dark warriors” (over-generalization of course). The quests and lore for the various “advanced” jobs can use the fact that players combine certain aspects from the basic classes to enter new frontiers of adventuring and form new ways of fighting. Which sounds better, a GLD who decides to suddenly become good or evil, or a character who realizes that he can enhance his fighting abilities with his sword and shield by adding elements of white magic to better protect his friends?

-Future proofs the game for new jobs in later expansions. There is no reason that later expansions can open “advanced advanced” jobs that require the player to have combinations of advanced jobs to open, i.e. in some future expansion, SE could release Star Mage, which requires ranks in BLM, RDM and time mage (all of which require their only ranks to be available.) This gives the games new branches and avenues of lore for future updates, i.e. some NPC is forced to defend a hamlet and accidentally combines two types of magic never tried before and opens a new element of magic or something.

Cons

- It requires a lot of revamp and expansion of the current game system, which in turn requires a lot of play-testing and trial and error. This will require a great commitment by the SE staff but also by the players to stand by while the staff works on the elements needed to implement this system.

-it would require a 180 on some of the lore and current understanding of the disciplines we currently have in game. The current jobs/classes we have will need to be redefined and given more specific roles, which eliminates some of the beauty and customization in the Armoury system.

I am sure there is a lot of stuff i have missed or not explained clearly, so please make comments and criticism so i can improve on it. I want FFXIV to be the great game i kno it can be, so if this thread in some minuscule way ends up helping that along, then it is more than worth the effort

[Kimahri]

I like where you're going with this. You thought this out and are trying to come up with an alternative to a better classification system. The only thing I see is that is a hell of a lot of Advanced Ranks. I mean, are you saying you can combine Gladiator with any other class to make a completely new one? If so we're looking at one hell of a list of Advanced Ranks.

It's some damn good thinking, though. Let me make a suggestion to you. Someone made a thread relating to this. What if you can take Gladiator and turn him into either one of two advanced ranks? What I'm trying to say is let's say you get Gladiator to Rank 30. You get a quest that either let's him go down the holy path of a Paladin, or the destructive path of a Dark Knight. You could even stay as Gladiator. That to me seems like a pretty good solution, too.

[Tibian]

I wholeheartedly agree with this system of classes. Not only does it fix the terrible class system we have now, but it also returns it to traditional FF classes and allows a VAST range of improvement on the classes.

I've wanted a FFT: Online forever, I simply wish that they will follow this and make it happen.

Good post.

[Azure_Heaven]

I like where you're going with this. You thought this out and are trying to come up with an alternative to a better classification system. The only thing I see is that is a hell of a lot of Advanced Ranks. I mean, are you saying you can combine Gladiator with any other class to make a completely new one? If so we're looking at one hell of a list of Advanced Ranks.

It's some damn good thinking, though. Let me make a suggestion to you. Someone made a thread relating to this. What if you can take Gladiator and turn him into either one of two advanced ranks? What I'm trying to say is let's say you get Gladiator to Rank 30. You get a quest that either let's him go down the holy path of a Paladin, or the destructive path of a Dark Knight. You could even stay as Gladiator. That to me seems like a pretty good solution, too.

Sorry if u misunderstood me, i didnt mean there should be limitless possibilities or that it was practically possible, i was just saying that it leaves the development team a wide range of area they can play with.

In practice, i would imagine there only being 2-3 advanced classes for every basic (ie, GLD would unlock, in part, PLD and Berserker and maybe one). Yes, the system does make a lot of theoritical room for classes, but there is no need for SE to implement them all at once or even at all

[Kimahri]

Nah. I still think that Gladiator's choices just seem a bit better as Paladin or Dark Knight. Marauder should turn into the Berserker......I want my Samurai so I'm not sure where the hell that'll fit in the categories, though....

[Azure_Heaven]

Nah. I still think that Gladiator's choices just seem a bit better as Paladin or Dark Knight. Marauder should turn into the Berserker......I want my Samurai so I'm not sure where the hell that'll fit in the categories, though....

While i disagree w that, MRD seems more DRK to me than GLD, the actual combos dont really matter so much. Its the principles of the system that matter the most.

[Dyvid]

Don't want to have classes tied together just for the sake of calling it something. I would rather equip a katana to become a Ninja than have to level GLA to 30, PUG to 20, and CON to 15.

[Shampooo]

i kinda thought this was how they were gonna do the game and we would have to "discover" how to unlock new advance classes, but alas, i was wrong lol.

[Kimahri]

At any rate, Azure_Heaven. Having your base rank being able to become either of two jobs seems logical.