When would you take DRK over PLD or WAR?

[JosephFaerie]

Revelation was physical. You could block or parry it.

[Tila]

snip

You've got to the point where you're not debating and just attacking the person you're debating. And stop playing ignorant. Block is different than parry because the parry is what procs reprisal. So far all you've done is say why DRK is good, but ignoring the point of the thread: why bring them over the others. Its not enough to be a good tank, DRK needs instances where they'd be wanted. Situations where it wouldn't be better to bring something else.

That and parry is stuck at a set percentage amount in the first place, plus block is something else on top of parry. Its hard to compare the two, but then again, you already know that.

[Morcavious]

Do you even PLD? It was my main before 3.0 and I can 'reliably' say I blocked almost every other attack. Oh, and if that failed there was parry as well.

That was mostly in counter to Tila's comment of "The difference is that paladin has a lot more passive defense on top of shield oath that the DRK does not have. Parry buffs are kinda shit and too RNG. Thats pretty much the big issue with DRK: to much randomness, when fights need the class to be dependable. A raid cant rely on crossing their fingers that the DRK parries the right moves, or the DRK has reprisal ready for the big hits."

If a raid can't rely on the DRK to parry the right move or have reprisal ready, then how can they depend on the PLD to use their passive defense to block? Outside of Sheltron (which is a great ability, and something I still say DRK's need something similar to) you can't rely on block any more than you can rely on reprisal.

[MythToken]

Sorry I might have started my own thread in reply to this topic, but basically a good reason to bring a DRK over a PLD is to combo with OT WAR.

Reprisal + Storm's Eye = 20% damage reduction on boss, as well as 10% int down

This should also work out to be the highest Burst and Sustained DPS tank combo.

[Xenosan]

100% up-time of a shield & parry chance for PLD does more than you think. This is why so many comparisons with RNG actions EHP potential - while possibly looking good and/or similar on paper - don't add up in practice.

It's how RNG & Probability work. Time/Frequency is required for RNG results to normalize into what they're expected to be. (+30% parry chance isn't going to be +30% until a large sample of proc chances occur. The higher the frequency, the more accurate the RNG). Example:

Over the course of a 15 minute fight, you parry a whooping 50% of all attacks. Wow.

But then look at the battle log. If half of all attacks were parried, you'd assume it'd look something like: 'No parry, parry, no parry, parry, no parry, parry, no parry, parry, etc etc"

But you'd be wrong.

They'll be large chunks where no parries are happening, and other instances where they're happening in succession.

So over the entire 15 minute duration you'd see 50%, but if you analyzed that fight by individual 30 second windows, you'll find times where your parry rate is 0%, 10%, 75%, etc etc.

This is why RNG CDs like Dark Dance are of little value. Time/frequency is required for RNG to return it's expected results. Dark Dance's 20 second duration is not long enough for the expected +30% proc chance to normalize.. only way to cheat that duration is by receiving more hits within it's duration (multi-target).

Casino slot machine? Same thing, gotta spend $100 before you make a 100.

[Daega]

That was mostly in counter to Tila's comment of "The difference is that paladin has a lot more passive defense on top of shield oath that the DRK does not have. Parry buffs are kinda shit and too RNG. Thats pretty much the big issue with DRK: to much randomness, when fights need the class to be dependable. A raid cant rely on crossing their fingers that the DRK parries the right moves, or the DRK has reprisal ready for the big hits."

If a raid can't rely on the DRK to parry the right move or have reprisal ready, then how can they depend on the PLD to use their passive defense to block? Outside of Sheltron (which is a great ability, and something I still say DRK's need something similar to) you can't rely on block any more than you can rely on reprisal.

Indeed. Parry RNG compared to block is a joke. Especially when it's our form of defense outside of cool downs.

[Reynhart]

If a raid can't rely on the DRK to parry the right move or have reprisal ready, then how can they depend on the PLD to use their passive defense to block?

Bulwark : Block rate +60%
Dark Dance : Parry rate +30%

[MythToken]

Reprisal has a cd of 30 sec with a duration of 20 sec.

Parrying happens quite a bit regardless of buffing parry or not. The uptime is significant.

No one is suggesting RELYING on reprisal for a big hit. It is simply lowering the overall damage output of the boss raidwide.
It's not just about mitigating damage on a tank, its all damage that everyone in the raid will take.

So if we calculate a 50% uptime of reprisal debuff, that is still in effect 5% less damage the boss is doing on top of the 10% from WAR.
As well as Int down.

I don't think this is something to be dismissed as RNG.

[Morcavious]

Bulwark : Block rate +60%
Dark Dance : Parry rate +30%

And we're completely ignoring the uptime difference as well as the Dark Arts effect? That's still a 20% chance to avoid an auto attack.

[Seku]

And we're completely ignoring the uptime difference as well as the Dark Arts effect? That's still a 20% chance to avoid an auto attack.

You could pair it with darkside buffed by DA to blind the target too...to further increase your chance of dodging...since well...I don't see DRK using as much MP after initial hate is gained and worked up.

But the problem with drk isn't it's ability to take a hit or live. It's the fact it lacks originality. It has the same problem DRG had all through out 2.0. That is DRG was a good DPS, could put out the numbers and ect, but it didn't bring anything to the group setting. DRK suffers this to a minor degree as they could act as the replacement for MNK's int down and allow for another DPS to take it's place.....say another DRG with a 2nd critical rate up for another 20 seconds.