SMN Theorycraft and comparison to Blm

[BakaWakka]

This has to be tested in raids before we can make up any concrete judgement...

On paper it looks like SMN is way better, but as people learn to play BLM better, they might be able to get a lot out of BLM in raids.

I've said it many times since the Heavensward release, but why do so many players look at Bismarck/Ravana fights when comparing jobs?(not saying Hai Hai is) By that logic, MNK would never had been picked for raids in 2.0... Primals are completely different, and there's usually a lot more movement in them. Raids can easily screw over BLM ofc, but we should wait and see how much movement there actually are before discounting BLM for raids.

I think that it's important to realize that for many hardcore raiders, they have to make a decision either now or as soon as possible in regards to whether they want to play Summoner or Black Mage in raids. There are many players that can play both at a high level but there are also many players that need time to practice and learn a single job, and these next few weeks are extremely valuable time. Of course they'll be able to get some valuable insight from Alexander Normal but that might not necessarily translate over to Alexander Savage.

That being said, I do not disagree with your point in the sense that both Summoner and Black Mages will be completely viable in a raid setting - however, viability and optimization are two very different things. If you choose to play Black Mage and your static is fine with that then you'll have absolutely no problems clearing the new raids assuming that you're raiding at a regular pace.

This Summoner vs Black Mage comparison is much more relevant in a heavy progression setting - some people will be devoting the entire first week of Alexander Savage entirely to Alexander Savage, while the other large majority of raiders will be raiding as much as they can over the first month. If those raiders are caster mains that want to know whether to practice Black Mage or Summoner, then they need to know as soon as possible which job they want to play. Something that will influence this decision is which job is better suited for a heavily undergeared progression environment. These people do not have time to wait and see if Black Mages will be able to handle the new raids. They want to gather as much of the information that we currently have and make a clear decision on which job is better in a blind progression setting.

I believe the document tries its best to analyze both classes, address their advantages and disadvantages, and make a reasonable conclusion on this subject.

A reasonable conclusion to come to is that, in a blind, unknown raid situation, Summoner offers much more adaptability, mobility and have more consistent damage due to multiple damage sources - DoTs, Pets, Ruins, Aetherflow/Dreadwyrm Trance. If one part of a Summoner's damage is performed incorrectly, the rest of his damage will still be going.

Black Mages on the other hand offers little adaptability in blind situations, zero mobility and a singular damage source. If a Black Mage performs his rotation incorrectly, his damage will drop considerably. Furthermore, the fact that their damage scales indirectly with their mobility (less movement = more damage) does not bode well for handling new mechanics.

That being said, if you choose to play Black Mage, then that's your choice. However you might find yourself considerably handicapped in a blind situation when compared to a Summoner of the same amount of skill.

[ShaolinMike]

That being said, if you choose to play Black Mage, then that's your choice. However you might find yourself considerably handicapped in a blind situation when compared to a Summoner of the same amount of skill.

Sounds a lot like what people were saying about SMN in FCOB. Good post.

[Havenchild]

I have to agree with Craiger on this. From what I've seen BLMs are still in the same place they were during FCOB in the BLM vs SMN relationship. Superior ST for sure. I've been running with solid BLMs in primals and they are still doing very high damage and yes beating SMNs. So idk about this claim of difficulty BLM will have. Sure it's gotten alil more difficult with things like Leylines and Enochian but I feel it's basically going to be more of the same we've seen before. Good BLMs being good, and bad ones being bad. I would not be surprised at all if people jump ship back to BLM if they see it doing superior damage in a raid setting.

Right now a lot of people are playing SMN as a flavor of the month class. Sure it's doing great damage now, but to disregard what BLMs are currently doing and yes they have superior single target, idk what people are thinking there. Everyone likes to mention movement with BLM and sure that's a factor, but that gets cleaned up really quick once they understand the instance. Same thing with like SMNs and the MP issue they had in FCOB. There's a caster balance right now that they really shouldn't adjust. Any changes could decisively tip the scales to one side over the other. There's also the optimization of gear that will come later on. Once we start getting back to original values, like how much SS is needed for old cast times pre-heavensward, I would not be surprised at all, if BLM takes off very quickly in it's current state.

[Akiza]

Right now Alexander statcis are going with either a Black Mage or Summoner but when Alexander comes out and players start seeing Black Mage do highers single target than Summoner most statics will prefer Black Mage over Summoner.

When it comes to making raid enrage timers statics wil still pick the Black Mage over the Summoner if they have trouble making dps checks.

[BakaWakka]

I have to agree with Craiger on this. From what I've seen BLMs are still in the same place they were during FCOB in the BLM vs SMN relationship. Superior ST for sure. I've been running with solid BLMs in primals and they are still doing very high damage and yes beating SMNs.

It's interesting to see that you claim to agree with Craiger yet you completely disregarded Craiger's point on using Extreme Primals as a benchmark to compare Black Mages and Summoners. But that's a bit irrelevant.

So idk about this claim of difficulty BLM will have. Sure it's gotten alil more difficult with things like Leylines and Enochian but I feel it's basically going to be more of the same we've seen before. Good BLMs being good, and bad ones being bad. I would not be surprised at all if people jump ship back to BLM if they see it doing superior damage in a raid setting.

Right now a lot of people are playing SMN as a flavor of the month class. Sure it's doing great damage now, but to disregard what BLMs are currently doing and yes they have superior single target, idk what people are thinking there. Everyone likes to mention movement with BLM and sure that's a factor, but that gets cleaned up really quick once they understand the instance. Same thing with like SMNs and the MP issue they had in FCOB.

I feel like you ignored a large portion of my post: The context of which I addressed Black Mage vs Summoner debate was in the scenario where the player has to choose a job for the raid that they are not comfortable with - that is, progression raiding.

The context of your argument is grounded on the basis that the player will be comfortable with the fight - that is, farm content.

I have no doubt that Black Mages will be able to perform exceptionally in farm content. However their ability to perform and adapt in progression content where there are many unknown and uncomfortable mechanics as well as a more chaotic environment is definitely questionable, and in this regard it is quite reasonable to conclude that Summoners will excel.

It's also interesting to see how you don't want people to disregard Black Mage, but you try to talk down Summoner damage in the sense that you think people will jump ship back to Black Mage when "they see it doing superior damage in a raid setting."

I would like to clarify that Summoner damage is currently no joke - the way that you phrase your comparison as "superior damage" is akin to comparing a melee's damage to a Bard's damage. In reality the damage gap is much, much smaller, akin to comparing a Monk's damage to a Dragoon's damage. If you play with the most exceptional Black Mage and the most exceptional Summoner in the world, you'll likely find the Black Mage dealing a small amount of extra damage. The difference in their single target damage is not as large as you might believe.

[Akiza]

It's interesting to see that you claim to agree with Craiger yet you completely disregarded Craiger's point on using Extreme Primals as a benchmark to compare Black Mages and Summoners. But that's a bit irrelevant.



I feel like you ignored a large portion of my post: The context of which I addressed Black Mage vs Summoner debate was in the scenario where the player has to choose a job for the raid that they are not comfortable with - that is, progression raiding.

The context of your argument is grounded on the basis that the player will be comfortable with the fight - that is, farm content.

I have no doubt that Black Mages will be able to perform exceptionally in farm content. However their ability to perform and adapt in progression content where there are many unknown and uncomfortable mechanics as well as a more chaotic environment is definitely questionable, and in this regard it is quite reasonable to conclude that Summoners will excel.

It's also interesting to see how you don't want people to disregard Black Mage, but you try to talk down Summoner damage in the sense that you think people will jump ship back to Black Mage when "they see it doing superior damage in a raid setting."

I would like to clarify that Summoner damage is currently no joke - the way that you phrase your comparison as "superior damage" is akin to comparing a melee's damage to a Bard's damage. In reality the damage gap is much, much smaller, akin to comparing a Monk's damage to a Dragoon's damage. If you play with the most exceptional Black Mage and the most exceptional Summoner in the world, you'll likely find the Black Mage dealing a small amount of extra damage. The difference in their single target damage is not as large as you might believe.

The overall difference between an exceptional Black Mage and an exceptional Summoner is the Black Mages have 10% higher single target damage than Summoner which is large but not large enough to make the Summoner pointless. My concern is if SE does a flat out potency buff to Black Mage to fix their movement issues than the Summoner will be rendered useless and have no reason to be in the game.

[Alberel]

The overall difference between an exceptional Black Mage and an exceptional Summoner is the Black Mages have 10% higher single target damage than Summoner which is large but not large enough to make the Summoner pointless. My concern is if SE does a flat out potency buff to Black Mage to fix their movement issues than the Summoner will be rendered useless and have no reason to be in the game.

That's exactly what happened to BLMs in 2.2 and why SMNs were indeed rendered obsolete for the second half of the 2.x patch cycle. The real kicker was that SE buffed BLMs to compensate for dps lost to movement and then proceeded to implement multiple largely stationary fights in coil, causing those buffs to be vastly overcompensating. All the big changes SMNs got in the expansion were to bring us back into line with BLMs but many BLMs are just seeing all the buffs and jumping to the conclusion that we're now vastly superior, completely oblivious to how far behind we've been for ages.

BLM potencies are fine. Their rotation just needs to be made a little less strict so they can more easily reach the numbers they're capable of.

[Havenchild]

-snip-

I am quite aware of what SMN damage is currently at, as I main the class thoroughly. I am however not oblivious to the fact that BLMs are pulling higher numbers on single target then SMNs. Both SMN and BLM haven't changed dramatically from their pre-heavensward counterparts. If you were good or bad in either class, you will be in the same place post expansion. Do I feel SMNs will jump back to BLM? Yes. Largely because the community tends to jump to whatever does more damage. DRGs and SMNs proved this in FCOB, BLMs proved it in SCOB. However there were people who mained these classes regardless in the raiding scenario and did great damage that broke the stigmas for these classes among their peers.

"If one part of a Summoner's damage is performed incorrectly, the rest of his damage will still be going."
Sure that's true, but on the same token, your damage can spiral downward very quickly on SMN if any of those things mess up. Your pet dies? DPS drops heavily. During Progression, your Pet has a high chance of dying due to not understanding how to position them correctly. To say either class won't be hurt in a blind situation is a misguided foresight. Everyone will suffer the same way until they get comfortable. On SMN, you won't have proper CD or AF management for several pulls as you will likely continue to do a Striking Dummy rotation until you realize new ways to optimize your damage. Same applies to BLM. Any good BLM given a few pulls, will start positioning themselves to prepare for opportune ways to handle mechanics. Now to say one class is invalidated over another, that goes purely on a turn by turn basis. One can easily destroy the other on a different turn as it's always been. (T8 easily a BLM fight, while T9 was better for SMNs)

Look at T10 or T11 for example, sure movement based mechanics was a terrible thing in both of those turns, and yet BLM still achieved the top parses universally (Non-cheese strats). Movement is not some crazy inhibitor for good BLMs. They will work around it as they always have to achieve great damage.

If you play with the most exceptional Black Mage and the most exceptional Summoner in the world, you'll likely find the Black Mage dealing a small amount of extra damage. The difference in their single target damage is not as large as you might believe.

The gap to me seems as much as it was during 2.55 FCOB. Could it be possible that you aren't playing with good BLMs on Gilgamesh who are maining the class? Haru pretty much shuts down your entire argument about DPS not being so different.

[Valsh]

BLM's are doing more damage on Ravanna
SMN's are doing more damage on Bismarck

Seems fair to me.

Some BLM's aren't happy their AoE got gutted and SMN's AoE got buffed quite heavily.
Some BLM's aren't happy that they have to work harder with their new skills to get their high single target DPS.

.... Deal with it?

If summoners can't regularly bane, painflare or deathflare multiple targets then BLM wins out every time and historically that should be most fights.(T1, T2, T6, T7, T8, T9, T11, T13).

[HaroldSaxon]

That's exactly what happened to BLMs in 2.2 and why SMNs were indeed rendered obsolete for the second half of the 2.x patch cycle. The real kicker was that SE buffed BLMs to compensate for dps lost to movement and then proceeded to implement multiple largely stationary fights in coil, causing those buffs to be vastly overcompensating. All the big changes SMNs got in the expansion were to bring us back into line with BLMs but many BLMs are just seeing all the buffs and jumping to the conclusion that we're now vastly superior, completely oblivious to how far behind we've been for ages.

BLM potencies are fine. Their rotation just needs to be made a little less strict so they can more easily reach the numbers they're capable of.

Actually, SMN'ers were fine in 2.2, although BLM were better in T8 due to the fight time. They fell out of favour due to the mana issues in the long final coil fights in 2.4, and that was the real issue.

Even with the BLM buffs, Melee's were still preferred in many fights, with people going duel Melee for most of the fights, and in some, tri-melee.

I agree with you that the SMN changes have brought them back in line with BLM's, although BLM has been hurt from:

- The nerf to Spellspeed
- The change to Fey Glow (Fey Wind)
- The change to 3 second casts for their main DPS
- The reduction of procs due to the shift from Fire 1 to Fire 4.
- The impracticality of using Thunder and Thundercloud (due to losing stacks/enochian).

I agree with you that fixing the QoL stuff should fix BLM and they don't need Potency changes, that said, I still worry about the viability of casters in general - they will only be taken in an optimal setup if a fight mechanic makes it so. People often say when a BLM gets no mechanics and can turret they can do great dps; but in the same situation, a Monk or Dragoon will do much more, and that isn't including the buffs to other classes DPS that they provide.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

My suggestions:
Astral Fire Duration Increase
Thunder 4 - Thundercloud giving extended Enochian by 5 seconds (so that using Thundercloud doesn't punish you)
Allow finish of B4/T4/F4 cast if the cast has started even if Enochian drops off
Fix of the F3-Gap-F4 bug.
Reduction of the Mana cost of F1 to be the same as F4 (so that using F1 instead of F4 doesn't double punish you)
Enochian skill always fully refreshes Enochian (so only B4 is a diminishing return)

Then give one of the SMN skills a small magic vulnerablity debuff so they have more utility.

What the above will do is bring QoL to BLM, and make casters able to be a viable option in raids where there aren't any "cheese" mechanics that force the use of a caster - and allow caster heavy parties to compete with Melee heavy parties.