Musings on Mods

[Carson_The_Brown]

I wouldn't say it's exaggerating to say mods like damage meters can cause a cultural shift that makes DPS feel even worse. It does, absolutely. It's giving the jerks we have now a legitimate megaphone with which they can be jerks. I'm not saying it would ruin the game. I played WoW for eight years sometimes casually sometimes as a progression raider and I certainly would not have done that if I felt like I was going to watch someone punch my mom for hours each time I logged in. And I used damage meters to measure my own performance and found them a valuable tool. I like the idea of them, I'm just always a bit unsure about introducing them to a new game.

This was largely what I was referring to in this general warning. I don't think mods are inherently bad. At the risk of sounding hokey, I think that we are at a critical junction and the soul of the community is being discussed. Do we want to be like WoW's community. Many people come here because the WoW community is vitriolic and they want to play with a more laid back community. Do we want to take a step towards WoW for the sake of a little convenience or do we want to continue to be a community that is welcoming to casuals and newcomers?

snip

I admit. mods are awesome, in WoW I have GTFO, Gatherer, DBM, and ElvUI and my Monk and Death Knights were damn good. I left WoW because it's community was unneccisarily mean to people who were even slightly behind in the learning curve. I have seen DPS get kicked, not because they caused a wipe, but because the DPS was less than 5% outside of expectation for their ilvl. I want us all to consider this thoroughly before we push SE to enable mods. If we feel the convenience of mods is worth the risk to our collective soul then I fully support the community's push for mods. I merely intend to urge caution before jumping headlong into what many of us think we want

[Whiteroom]

I wouldn't say it's exaggerating to say mods like damage meters can cause a cultural shift that makes DPS feel even worse. It does, absolutely. It's giving the jerks we have now a legitimate megaphone with which they can be jerks.

As opposed to how it is now, where just the heals and tanks get crapped on for not doing their jobs?

I'm all for dps meters, yeah you will have your people that are jerks about it, but most of them.are being jerks already. I would much rather see my dps so that I would know where I stand and if I need improving. Also it does yet you know if there are weak links. Right now so many parties arent passing BEX because they cant get enough dps. I would much prefer to know why. Is it that everyone is a sub par dpsnin the group, or is one or two people really not doing their job.

[Carson_The_Brown]

As opposed to how it is now, where just the heals and tanks get crapped on for not doing their jobs?

I am not sure that "other people are jerks so we can be jerks back" is really a helpful argument. It kind of feels like the American argument that says "The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". Yes, DPS are frequently culprits in this, does this mean we want to arm tanks and heals with the capacity to retaliate?

Also, how many people on all 3 sides of this debate are going to pre-emptively strike bad damage dealers? In my, admittedly, exhaustive experience with PUGging in addon-enabled MMOs has shown that people doing low damage lashing at the tanks for not surviving adds and heals for not keeping the tanks in check occurs just as often as you see tanks preemptively vote kicking DPS because the first boss didn't go down fast enough. If the issue is really DPS wanting to know if they are measuring up then there are better ways to do it than making any failure publicly available.

Shaming people for being bad at their job doesn't actually help them improve. It only makes them more nervous.

I think the answer to tanks and heals getting flamed is regulation, not more fire. The commendation system is designed to incentivise more cooperation. The devs should focus there for eliminating hostility towards tanks and heals. The fact that tanks and healers are largely pacifistic at this point (though my sample pool is hardly representative) is good. As a DPS myself I think the answer is to encourage DPS to be less hostile.

If the driving issue behind enabling mods revolves around damage meters then I might suggest a different solution. What do you think would happen if SE decided to add a separate commendation that can only be given to PUG DPS? Greater scientists than I have already proven that the lower vitriol among tanks and heals can be linked to them getting most of the Coms. I think the hope of getting the commendation could help to alleviate the issue of harassing DPS better than giving tanks and healers a way to bash back.

In short, if the reason for damage meters is to check unruly DPS, the answer is letting them know that there are consequences for their actions and letting the know that those consequences don't have to be negative. These people are cruel because they need attention, lets give it to them.

[Whiteroom]

I am not sure that "other people are jerks so we can be jerks back" is really a helpful argument.

Funny that that is what you got out of it. It's not about being jerks back. The whole argument against parsers is summed up as, "people will be jerks to dps.". Well guess what, tanks and healers already get this, but I don't see anyone talking about babying them. The parser is more than a tool for improving your own dps. While it is primarily that, it also allows you to see if people in the party are not doing their job. When I join a party, I want to carry my weight, and I am in the right to want others to do the same.

While people can take the time to teach if someone if they feel like it, they are by no means obligated to, or are a bad person for not wanting to. Sometimes I'm in the mood to help, others, I really don't want to.

This is a game with many dps checks, and no way, save passing them, to know how you are doing. Unless someone is obviously terrible, there is no way to know where you are going wrong. How many dps entering BEX right now are going, "I thought I was good, but I can't clear this check." When maybe they are preforming and getting stuck with those who aren't. In a couple of my runs that failed, I've had the same DRG, DPS isn't coming close, is it him? I don't know. But he is a common member in low dps parties. So, is he unfortunate enough to be just getting stuck with bad dps, or is he the issue? Right now, when I join a party and hes in it, I'm not thinking "Yay! Clear for sure!"

Also, your solution of comming dps goes nowhere if people don't know who is performing.

I saw a lot of abuse of the parse system in DCUO. A lot of people who didn't know what they were talking about slamming people. But you have slamming anyway. And hey, if there is a parse system, maybe, just maybe, that lippy dps who likes to yell at everyone, will think twice after seeing where he stands. Instead of thinking only of the abuse the system will cause, maybe we can look at some of the abuse it will alleviate.

[Callinon]

I don't think the only difference between this community and WoW's community is the existence of addons, and that giving us access to an addon API changes us into WoW's community. I don't buy that. It's a strawman, and not a very effective one.

As people have pointed out, an underperforming dps can and will be kicked right now without even the benefit of knowing that they were doing something wrong. Now I think that kicking someone for being 5% off their "expected" dps is a little stupid. There are a lot of reasons that can happen, especially in the mechanics-heavy fights that FFXIV favors, that have absolutely nothing to do with someone being bad at their job. At least if that dps can see their own numbers, they can know that something might be wrong with what they're doing and work to correct the problem. Right now, I think that most dps probably believe they do their job really well and aren't making any mistakes. I can tell you that in the majority of cases I've seen, this is not the case. But there's no convenient way for me to help someone do their job better if they think they're doing well already. I need data I can show them to back up something like that.

WoW players and FFXIV players are pretty fundamentally different. I say that having played both games at a high level. I don't believe that giving us an addon API turns us into some kind of MMO Lord of the Flies rendition.

[Nikita]

I've played a lot of WoW. I had always used DPS meters, and I rarely saw people call each other out. I mean hey, I may have made a comment or two over vent to friends about someone who obviously didn't know how to play their class, but I was never rude to them.

Yeah, there are jerks out there. They're going to be jerks weather or not they have DPS meters. What's so wrong with a meter that tells you how people are performing? What's wrong with wanting to find out who is holding your group back vs a DPS check boss?

Now, I've seen some people making comments about people who are clearly emotionally unstable and bursting into tears upon looking at their meters, without any provocation. That's not the meter's fault. They need psychiatric help.

There are already jerks, trolls, and douche bags galore in this game. Guys. Seriously. Calm down. You might perceive people to be more douchey with meters, but they're just channeling that same douche energy in a different way - namely calling out people who are under-performing.

Imagine how much faster CT runs would have went if you could see which summoners were just spamming ruin II and not casting any DoTs!!!

[Slirith]

Wish SE would just patch out the parsers....just adds toxicity in every game where they are allowed

[Callinon]

Wish SE would just patch out the parsers....just adds toxicity in every game where they are allowed

A: That's impossible
B: Jerks don't need a tool in order to be jerks. Trust me, they'd find a way without it.

[Kaedan94]

Doesn't really matter what some random youtuber says, even if they are popular.

SE has been "considering" addons for years. The fact they are still "considering" it speaks worlds. Protip: In Japan, if your boss is "considering" an idea that you've put forth, what they are really saying is NO. They are just being polite by not flat out rejecting you.

[Nikita]

Doesn't really matter what some random youtuber says, even if they are popular.

SE has been "considering" addons for years. The fact they are still "considering" it speaks worlds. Protip: In Japan, if your boss is "considering" an idea that you've put forth, what they are really saying is NO. They are just being polite by not flat out rejecting you.

Hate to break it to you, they've moved on from "considering" it long ago, it's since been confirmed to be in the works.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ff-.../1100-6425730/