MCH worth my time?

[Alchemii]

This would only be true for progression. Once its regular or farming content (or really dungeon content), having lower dps by default end up being cumbersome.

And even then, BRD's tp/mp regen is more controlled when it comes to burst or spur of a moment (healer died or ressing), while machinist's is tied to their dps cooldown (hypercharge) which eats away at their overall output if they dont use it on cooldown in favor of saving it for such moments.

Not completely, Promotion can still be used for TP/MP Regen without Hypercharge. However, yea it's a weakened form and MCH will still probably never get picked for a Raid over a BRD, and let's be honest since BRD has been around since 2.0 there are no shortage of them.

[RiceisNice]

Not completely, Promotion can still be used for TP/MP Regen without Hypercharge. However, yea it's a weakened form and MCH will still probably never get picked for a Raid over a BRD, and let's be honest since BRD has been around since 2.0 there are no shortage of them.

Thats what I mean. Without hypercharge, the regen from promotion is pretty piss poor. It's not going to save your healers from running out of mana if they're dangerously low from dying or ressing.

[ZodiacSoldier]

Not completely, Promotion can still be used for TP/MP Regen without Hypercharge. However, yea it's a weakened form and MCH will still probably never get picked for a Raid over a BRD, and let's be honest since BRD has been around since 2.0 there are no shortage of them.

But isn't the MP Refresh Potency of Promotion 30, just like Mage's Ballad, and the TP refresh is 30 TP per tic just like Army's Paeon. Only difference is that BRD song is centered around caster and MCH Promotion is centered around his turret (each have their benefits depending on situation/fight).

Why exactly would raids always pick BRD over MCH, wasn't their DPS similar to each other? I haven't really gotten them to 60 yet so havent gotten a chance to try them at max level yet, but would like to eventually.

[Alchemii]

But isn't the MP Refresh Potency of Promotion 30, just like Mage's Ballad, and the TP refresh is 30 TP per tic just like Army's Paeon. Only difference is that BRD song is centered around caster and MCH Promotion is centered around his turret (each have their benefits depending on situation/fight).

Why exactly would raids always pick BRD over MCH, wasn't their DPS similar to each other? I haven't really gotten them to 60 yet so havent gotten a chance to try them at max level yet, but would like to eventually.

Not what I've heard or seen. I'm actually having trouble finding solid numbers on, but based on my experience it seems that without Hypercharge Brd Regens MP/TP at a much higher rate than MCH. With Hypercharge it feels like it evens out there. So I'd actually assume that Promotion is base 15, since Hypercharge doubles it, but like I said I am having trouble finding exact numbers so I could be very wrong I'll give an update when I do find some solid numbers on it. Unless someone can beat me too it.

All that being said even if they do the same Regen as BRD without Hypercharge, it's still a much bigger DPS lose to activate than it is for BRD.

P.S.: Editing is magic.

[Thunda51]

I got MCH to 60, have it pretty well geared and everything and it still feels subpar. If you want a mobile ranged DPS go BRD. MCH is fun but the DPS it does is laughable. After the opening rotation it's pretty much useless because you have to wait for reload and quick reload, so you're sitting there spamming Slug shot in hopes of a proc for Clean shot. The class has alot of potential but it just can't keep up with the DPS of other classes.

[RiceisNice]

...

When I have to do Ballad or Paeon in a raid, I always pop battle voice with it so it gets them up fast. Otherwise, I'm singing for an indefinite amount of time or until I run out of mana because it'll at best break even on their costs (or not keep up if it gets really healing intensive, such as recovering from deaths), or it's a extreme downtime during a fight.

If i wanted ot do that as machinist, I'd have to hold hypercharge, which is one of my dps cooldowns. That already leads to a dps loss by not using my cooldowns, on top of the dps loss from disabling the turret's attacks.

[Dement]

Stop right there -_-

If this is the case MCH will never get into a group anyway because BRD's regen will always be better.

Taking both into a group should be perfectly viable just like it is for every other damn class, stop treating both jobs like they are there to be your own crappy supports (non existant) and that only.

SNM and BLM is a group - "yup np!"
DRG and NIN in groups - "Yeah ofc!"
BRD and MCH - "WFT are you retarded!?"

So long as you can get 4 BRD and 4 MCH groups in duty finder the whole "support" thing doesn't hold any water and I expect them to be able to do some damn damage, hence being dps -_-

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restictions based on class though... "Ahh we got a PLD, no WAR's allowed now"... Great eh?

Sorry if this comes across as pis** kinda sick of seeing this being said like its a good thing when it clearly isn't....

And I'm kind of sick of BRDs thinking they should do the same damage as everyone else. All 4x BRD or 4x MCH needs to be able to do is clear the DPS requirements in duty finder. Which currently with echo, I believe that they would be able to accomplish that in every DF scenario existing. Remember the original days when BRD damage was on par with everyone else? I was a MNK in those days and for MONTHS I was told "ranged DPS or gtfo" in HM and EX primals because BRD brought utility, mobility, and the same DPS as the other classes... why bring anything else? The lower DPS is the only thing actively keeping 4x BRD/MCH from being the way that raiding is done.

Support as its own archtype is non-existant but to pretend that BRD and MCH aren't closer to support than the other classes is asinine. All jobs bring a certain level of utility but not the same as mass refresh on the healers or mass TP regen on every DPS. These are 2 completely different tiers of utility. You have historically had a guaranteed spot because of them which is more than any other class can say, so yes, it is a good thing.

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restrictions based on class though... "We have BRDs and MCHs that produce the same damage while being mobile and adding massive utilities? Who needs anything else?"... Great eh? This also has precedent from the early days.

For the record, I'm not saying that BRDs and MCHs should not get a buff, I absolutely think that they should... they should certainly not be behind a WAR in DPS... but they do not need to be doing the same damage as every other job while maintaining all the benefits of ranged DPS. You can argue that WM will tie them down now but since that's a DPS loss at the moment then nothing has really changed. The real gist of my post was that if the OP can wait until whatever rebalancing happens, there's likely nothing wrong with being a MCH if that's what he really wants to be.

[Thunda51]

I got MCH to 60, have it pretty well geared and everything and it still feels subpar. If you want a mobile ranged DPS go BRD. MCH is fun but the DPS it does is laughable. After the opening rotation it's pretty much useless because you have to wait for reload and quick reload, so you're sitting there spamming Slug shot in hopes of a proc for Clean shot. The class has alot of potential but it just can't keep up with the DPS of other classes.

[RiceisNice]

...

>More with how the fights were designed back then. Garuda would assrape any melee with wicked wheel. Titan laughed at monk stacks. Now you had FCoB where monks were master dps and had among the best utility from dragon kick. Those issues were more on a fight-by-fight basis, not what was inherently wrong with the class(es), such as DRG's abyssmal magic defense in FCoB.

> Can you really say that this is the case now? There has been quite a bit of homogenization with specific roles, as well as improvements on some of their short comings (such as monk stacks or SMN versitility). I can't even say that I use TP/MP anymore unless the fight has gone completely south (which is typically unrecoverable anyway), even in FCoB after we solidified our healing habits.

>People overrate the value of mobility, especially when it's in comparison to melee dps. Now we have BRDs and MCHs who have to stay stationary akin to a BLM, yet their dps still falls short on top of questionable design (GB doing less than without for one)

>In the end, people highly value the support when honestly it's a bit overrated, especially when people try to bring this up as one of the reasons why their dps should be a bit behind. They already get a dps penalty anyway for using them in the first place.

Really, in the end I'd wish they'd at least buff GB and WM so that it's decent increase instead of a minor, if not a loss. The fact it has a 3 second cast time is a good indicator that they didn't want us swapping this on a whim, but all post-50 abilities require this stance anyway

[Thunda51]

I understand that the DPS shouldn't be on par with a Monk but it shouldn't be this low. Yeah we can regen MP/TP but at a cost, at least on the BRD end of things. But at the same time the regen of MCH is a joke. There's no reason why ranged classes should be this weak. Okay so we can move, so can Ninja and they're putting out decent DPS. The only difference is obviously they have to be close to the target. But hey they can dodge. People trip out about mobility way too much. If ranged physical DPS classes struggle to meet DPS checks and are being booted from EX runs constantly then there's an issue.