MCH worth my time?

[IfritReborn]

Again, comprehension problems. If you mistake what I said for the demand, you went somewhere wrong. Like a few miles wrong.

Anyway, I wasted on you 2 posts more than I should have. Stop embarrassing yourself.

The only person embarrassing themselves here is you.

[Ephemiel]

Again, comprehension problems. If you mistake what I said for the demand, you went somewhere wrong. Like a few miles wrong.

Anyway, I wasted on you 2 posts more than I should have. Stop embarrassing yourself.

I've always wondered how it felt to live in delusion. Mind telling me?

[Viar]

The only person embarrassing themselves here is you.

Because in your opinion people have to bend to each and every word people say in Pug? Because in someone else's opinion having the right equals to having to use this right straight away? Sigh, people, stop projecting your problems on me.

And, congratulations, you proved yourselves quite spectacular on every negative level. Be proud of yourselves, if nothing else.

[Ephemiel]

Because in your opinion people have to bend to each and every word people say in Pug? Because in someone else's opinion having the right equals to having to use this right straight away? Sigh, people, stop projecting your problems on me.

And, congratulations, you proved yourselves quite spectacular on every negative level. Be proud of yourselves, if nothing else.

Only one projecting right now is yourself, congratulations. That delusion seems to run deep.

[Atlaworks]

Hey? Uh, guys? Kind of strayed from the topic here. All of you bickering could stand to have a little more tact when doing so; just because one person is being rude doesn't mean you need to be rude back.

On topic, I don't feel MCH is worth levelling until they get some kind of buff. I was holding out faith when they first came out, but the first thing to happen to them is a nerf, and they're already the lowest DPS of all DPS classes, and fourth lowest damage total- they're kicked from parties because Bards do everything they do and better, and that's not saying a lot. It'd just be frustrating and depressing to level one right now.

[Underdog2204]

MCH is just gonna be a tainted job for quite a while now.

Even if all the issues are fixed they are gonna be considered subpar in the communities mind and you will more than likely get blamed for any failed dps checks, it took a while for WAR's+SNM's and it will take a while for MCH.

It's unfair and totally unjustifed but it is true.

If you want to put in a lot of effort for little to no reward then by all means go MCH, otherwise stick with BRD for the same stuff (easier to play though) or just go BLM or something. While other jobs are slightly more complicated than before you will get a much higher outcome for far less effort.

The combination of really poor release impressions and now a even greater reduction to their damage is gonna stick in peoples minds.

[Dement]

It kind of depends on what you are planning to accomplish in the next 2-3 months. Do you intend on being on the forefront of Alexander Savage when it comes out in ~3 weeks? If so then I would not go MCH. However, if you don't mind waiting a while to experience those fights and if you really like MCH and the fundamentals of the job (lower DPS than a melee, support for TP/MP regen, ranged and mobile attacks which may be switched to immobile with Gauss Barrel) really call out to you, I'd go MCH. I have ran all of the 50-60 dungeons with a MCH and have never seen one kicked from their party. Does it happen? Probably but it's not nearly as rampant as a lot would have you believe. Right now, though, MCH will probably have problems getting into the EX Primals for Bismarck and Ravana but those fights are also new and don't have nearly as many parties striving for clears right now. As that paradigm shifts, MCHs may have an easier time joining... I just wouldn't expect to ever be allowed to get into a party which already has 1 MCH or a BRD.

For the most part SE did a great job over the course of ARR keeping the jobs in line and competitive with one another. It'll just take time for them to buff BRD and MCH while they determine how they want to handle the buffs to bring them in line without overpowering them. Also keep in mind that BRD/MCH might be absolutely necessary in Alexander Savage even though they don't have as high of DPS. BRD never had as high of DPS in ARR as the other jobs after they got nerfed in the early days but a BRD spot was pretty much a staple of every endgame progression party. If the need for TP/MP regen is that great, then BRD and MCH will still have a spot in the top tier raids, even if they don't get buffed. If they are so bad that they don't have a place in endgame then they will get a buff within the next couple of months pretty much guaranteed.

[Underdog2204]

BRD spot was pretty much a staple of every endgame progression party. If the need for TP/MP regen is that great, then BRD and MCH will still have a spot in the top tier raids, even if they don't get buffed.

Stop right there -_-

If this is the case MCH will never get into a group anyway because BRD's regen will always be better.

Taking both into a group should be perfectly viable just like it is for every other damn class, stop treating both jobs like they are there to be your own crappy supports (non existant) and that only.

SNM and BLM is a group - "yup np!"
DRG and NIN in groups - "Yeah ofc!"
BRD and MCH - "WFT are you retarded!?"

So long as you can get 4 BRD and 4 MCH groups in duty finder the whole "support" thing doesn't hold any water and I expect them to be able to do some damn damage, hence being dps -_-

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restictions based on class though... "Ahh we got a PLD, no WAR's allowed now"... Great eh?

Sorry if this comes across as pis** kinda sick of seeing this being said like its a good thing when it clearly isn't....

And I'm kind of sick of BRDs thinking they should do the same damage as everyone else. All 4x BRD or 4x MCH needs to be able to do is clear the DPS requirements in duty finder. Which currently with echo, I believe that they would be able to accomplish that in every DF scenario existing. Remember the original days when BRD damage was on par with everyone else? I was a MNK in those days and for MONTHS I was told "ranged DPS or gtfo" in HM and EX primals because BRD brought utility, mobility, and the same DPS as the other classes... why bring anything else? The lower DPS is the only thing actively keeping 4x BRD/MCH from being the way that raiding is done.

Support as its own archtype is non-existant but to pretend that BRD and MCH aren't closer to support than the other classes is asinine. All jobs bring a certain level of utility but not the same as mass refresh on the healers or mass TP regen on every DPS. These are 2 completely different tiers of utility. You have historically had a guaranteed spot because of them which is more than any other class can say, so yes, it is a good thing.

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restrictions based on class though... "We have BRDs and MCHs that produce the same damage while being mobile and adding massive utilities? Who needs anything else?"... Great eh? This also has precedent from the early days.

For the record, I'm not saying that BRDs and MCHs should not get a buff, I absolutely think that they should... they should certainly not be behind a WAR in DPS... but they do not need to be doing the same damage as every other job while maintaining all the benefits of ranged DPS. You can argue that WM will tie them down now but since that's a DPS loss at the moment then nothing has really changed. The real gist of my post was that if the OP can wait until whatever rebalancing happens, there's likely nothing wrong with being a MCH if that's what he really wants to be.

Pfft not even gonna say anything about your first point as it is totally ridiculous "all they'd need to do is wipe and rely on Echo to clear content"... Like really...

That one spot is for BRD's (if that is what you need) because their songs are 1000x better than MCH turret regen, why you are classing them as the same thing and I have no idea... BRD's have regen on tap, it is not even close to the same for MCH who require a higher loss of damage and a 120 sec CD skill that is part of their rotation being used to make it even noticeable. Using this regen just once for a MCH can easily result in a immediate loss of 200-300 dps ontop of their already gimped damage... Totally fair...

They will never be on an equal playing field with this as it is what make a BRD a BRD. So how is that "massive utilites"?... Again stop thinking they are the same... Just because your way of thinking is still stuck in 2.0 and you cannot see the very huge differences between the two jobs is just.... Wow...

Dunno what SE is gonna do with any new dps classes they introduce... Guess they are all gonna have to have totally stunted damage and be relegated to the non existant role otherwise all the DRG, NIN, BLM, SMN would get pissy... "You've got lethargy on a shorter CD.... support! You'z gotz much moar utility you don't need damage!". At this rate no new dps will be able to actually dps without people like you getting up in arms about it, no matter how weak/situational/ineffective their utility skills are.

The rest of your arguments are just being overly defensive. Competative dps is not the same as "doing the same damage as everyone", I would/should expect to not to have to wipe to clear content though no matter the compesition the df puts me in.

What yo just posted was alot of words for saying "BRD regen needed for raids, so MCH damage needs to be lower! BRD's where strong once, lower MCH damage!"... Kinda silly when put like that huh?

The only part i agree with is the loss of mobility, this should only apply to MCH though as there is nothing wrong with having a ranged physical dps class be able to actually do damage. BRD's are too used to being mobile for it to be removed from them now like SE did though. Having it like this means both can join a group together and there would not be an issue, if needed the MCH can help top up the BRD's songs with their turret, it would only be a last resort though as the dps loss is too much to use often.

The synergy between the two would be great, just like the synergy between BRD's and Casters, and Dragoons+BRD's+MCH. None of these setups would be a necessity and it opens up far more options than treating a job like it's damage type counterpart.#

So start treating MCH like a MCH and not like a BRD pls... It needs it's own place, not to be shoehorned into something it isn't.

[Snugglebutt]

Melee DPS and Mage DPS are both in good positions right now, physical ranged DPS aka bard and machinist are currently not in a very good position due to SE design choices and suffering because of it in group content.

We can only hope SE fixes the issues with them but doubt will resolve it any time soon. You will be fine for most content that have no major DPS checks at 60 on bard or machinist but might suffer insults and getting kicked of blocked from hard content at 60 sometimes which requires high DPS checks like EX mode trials. You may get lucky however and only meet friendly nice people willing to accommodate your lower DPS but just be prepared for the potential of coming into contact with nasty ones and bad experiences until they are fixed when taking part for the most part in EX trials (maybe alexander too when comes out).

The major problem content is EX mode trials in HW, all dungeons and non EX mode content in HW you should be fine on either though. Not sure what will happen with alexander raid but I am expecting to be as bad for bards and machinists as the current EX trials are in HW in terms of belittling of your class by others and kicking from groups just because of the class you play. This last part is an assumption though about the difficulty of alexander and depending on the difficulty and DPS output required reflected in that possible outcome.

I play as a bard main and in almost all content so far in HW you wont have any major problems except in EX modes where you may be picked on, insulted or kicked just because of your class. Though even in the non EX group content be prepared to have lower overall DPS than most other classes quite often, exceptions possible when take into account other players may not be as good at their jobs but if they are good you will often be lower on the DPS chain as bard or machinist even if your good too.

[RiceisNice]

...

This would only be true for progression. Once its regular or farming content (or really dungeon content), having lower dps by default end up being cumbersome.

And even then, BRD's tp/mp regen is more controlled when it comes to burst or spur of a moment (healer died or ressing), while machinist's is tied to their dps cooldown (hypercharge) which eats away at their overall output if they dont use it on cooldown in favor of saving it for such moments.