MCH worth my time?

[Atlaworks]

Hey? Uh, guys? Kind of strayed from the topic here. All of you bickering could stand to have a little more tact when doing so; just because one person is being rude doesn't mean you need to be rude back.

On topic, I don't feel MCH is worth levelling until they get some kind of buff. I was holding out faith when they first came out, but the first thing to happen to them is a nerf, and they're already the lowest DPS of all DPS classes, and fourth lowest damage total- they're kicked from parties because Bards do everything they do and better, and that's not saying a lot. It'd just be frustrating and depressing to level one right now.

[Underdog2204]

MCH is just gonna be a tainted job for quite a while now.

Even if all the issues are fixed they are gonna be considered subpar in the communities mind and you will more than likely get blamed for any failed dps checks, it took a while for WAR's+SNM's and it will take a while for MCH.

It's unfair and totally unjustifed but it is true.

If you want to put in a lot of effort for little to no reward then by all means go MCH, otherwise stick with BRD for the same stuff (easier to play though) or just go BLM or something. While other jobs are slightly more complicated than before you will get a much higher outcome for far less effort.

The combination of really poor release impressions and now a even greater reduction to their damage is gonna stick in peoples minds.

[Dement]

It kind of depends on what you are planning to accomplish in the next 2-3 months. Do you intend on being on the forefront of Alexander Savage when it comes out in ~3 weeks? If so then I would not go MCH. However, if you don't mind waiting a while to experience those fights and if you really like MCH and the fundamentals of the job (lower DPS than a melee, support for TP/MP regen, ranged and mobile attacks which may be switched to immobile with Gauss Barrel) really call out to you, I'd go MCH. I have ran all of the 50-60 dungeons with a MCH and have never seen one kicked from their party. Does it happen? Probably but it's not nearly as rampant as a lot would have you believe. Right now, though, MCH will probably have problems getting into the EX Primals for Bismarck and Ravana but those fights are also new and don't have nearly as many parties striving for clears right now. As that paradigm shifts, MCHs may have an easier time joining... I just wouldn't expect to ever be allowed to get into a party which already has 1 MCH or a BRD.

For the most part SE did a great job over the course of ARR keeping the jobs in line and competitive with one another. It'll just take time for them to buff BRD and MCH while they determine how they want to handle the buffs to bring them in line without overpowering them. Also keep in mind that BRD/MCH might be absolutely necessary in Alexander Savage even though they don't have as high of DPS. BRD never had as high of DPS in ARR as the other jobs after they got nerfed in the early days but a BRD spot was pretty much a staple of every endgame progression party. If the need for TP/MP regen is that great, then BRD and MCH will still have a spot in the top tier raids, even if they don't get buffed. If they are so bad that they don't have a place in endgame then they will get a buff within the next couple of months pretty much guaranteed.

[Underdog2204]

BRD spot was pretty much a staple of every endgame progression party. If the need for TP/MP regen is that great, then BRD and MCH will still have a spot in the top tier raids, even if they don't get buffed.

Stop right there -_-

If this is the case MCH will never get into a group anyway because BRD's regen will always be better.

Taking both into a group should be perfectly viable just like it is for every other damn class, stop treating both jobs like they are there to be your own crappy supports (non existant) and that only.

SNM and BLM is a group - "yup np!"
DRG and NIN in groups - "Yeah ofc!"
BRD and MCH - "WFT are you retarded!?"

So long as you can get 4 BRD and 4 MCH groups in duty finder the whole "support" thing doesn't hold any water and I expect them to be able to do some damn damage, hence being dps -_-

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restictions based on class though... "Ahh we got a PLD, no WAR's allowed now"... Great eh?

Sorry if this comes across as pis** kinda sick of seeing this being said like its a good thing when it clearly isn't....

And I'm kind of sick of BRDs thinking they should do the same damage as everyone else. All 4x BRD or 4x MCH needs to be able to do is clear the DPS requirements in duty finder. Which currently with echo, I believe that they would be able to accomplish that in every DF scenario existing. Remember the original days when BRD damage was on par with everyone else? I was a MNK in those days and for MONTHS I was told "ranged DPS or gtfo" in HM and EX primals because BRD brought utility, mobility, and the same DPS as the other classes... why bring anything else? The lower DPS is the only thing actively keeping 4x BRD/MCH from being the way that raiding is done.

Support as its own archtype is non-existant but to pretend that BRD and MCH aren't closer to support than the other classes is asinine. All jobs bring a certain level of utility but not the same as mass refresh on the healers or mass TP regen on every DPS. These are 2 completely different tiers of utility. You have historically had a guaranteed spot because of them which is more than any other class can say, so yes, it is a good thing.

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restrictions based on class though... "We have BRDs and MCHs that produce the same damage while being mobile and adding massive utilities? Who needs anything else?"... Great eh? This also has precedent from the early days.

For the record, I'm not saying that BRDs and MCHs should not get a buff, I absolutely think that they should... they should certainly not be behind a WAR in DPS... but they do not need to be doing the same damage as every other job while maintaining all the benefits of ranged DPS. You can argue that WM will tie them down now but since that's a DPS loss at the moment then nothing has really changed. The real gist of my post was that if the OP can wait until whatever rebalancing happens, there's likely nothing wrong with being a MCH if that's what he really wants to be.

Pfft not even gonna say anything about your first point as it is totally ridiculous "all they'd need to do is wipe and rely on Echo to clear content"... Like really...

That one spot is for BRD's (if that is what you need) because their songs are 1000x better than MCH turret regen, why you are classing them as the same thing and I have no idea... BRD's have regen on tap, it is not even close to the same for MCH who require a higher loss of damage and a 120 sec CD skill that is part of their rotation being used to make it even noticeable. Using this regen just once for a MCH can easily result in a immediate loss of 200-300 dps ontop of their already gimped damage... Totally fair...

They will never be on an equal playing field with this as it is what make a BRD a BRD. So how is that "massive utilites"?... Again stop thinking they are the same... Just because your way of thinking is still stuck in 2.0 and you cannot see the very huge differences between the two jobs is just.... Wow...

Dunno what SE is gonna do with any new dps classes they introduce... Guess they are all gonna have to have totally stunted damage and be relegated to the non existant role otherwise all the DRG, NIN, BLM, SMN would get pissy... "You've got lethargy on a shorter CD.... support! You'z gotz much moar utility you don't need damage!". At this rate no new dps will be able to actually dps without people like you getting up in arms about it, no matter how weak/situational/ineffective their utility skills are.

The rest of your arguments are just being overly defensive. Competative dps is not the same as "doing the same damage as everyone", I would/should expect to not to have to wipe to clear content though no matter the compesition the df puts me in.

What yo just posted was alot of words for saying "BRD regen needed for raids, so MCH damage needs to be lower! BRD's where strong once, lower MCH damage!"... Kinda silly when put like that huh?

The only part i agree with is the loss of mobility, this should only apply to MCH though as there is nothing wrong with having a ranged physical dps class be able to actually do damage. BRD's are too used to being mobile for it to be removed from them now like SE did though. Having it like this means both can join a group together and there would not be an issue, if needed the MCH can help top up the BRD's songs with their turret, it would only be a last resort though as the dps loss is too much to use often.

The synergy between the two would be great, just like the synergy between BRD's and Casters, and Dragoons+BRD's+MCH. None of these setups would be a necessity and it opens up far more options than treating a job like it's damage type counterpart.#

So start treating MCH like a MCH and not like a BRD pls... It needs it's own place, not to be shoehorned into something it isn't.

[Dement]

Stop right there -_-

If this is the case MCH will never get into a group anyway because BRD's regen will always be better.

Taking both into a group should be perfectly viable just like it is for every other damn class, stop treating both jobs like they are there to be your own crappy supports (non existant) and that only.

SNM and BLM is a group - "yup np!"
DRG and NIN in groups - "Yeah ofc!"
BRD and MCH - "WFT are you retarded!?"

So long as you can get 4 BRD and 4 MCH groups in duty finder the whole "support" thing doesn't hold any water and I expect them to be able to do some damn damage, hence being dps -_-

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restictions based on class though... "Ahh we got a PLD, no WAR's allowed now"... Great eh?

Sorry if this comes across as pis** kinda sick of seeing this being said like its a good thing when it clearly isn't....

And I'm kind of sick of BRDs thinking they should do the same damage as everyone else. All 4x BRD or 4x MCH needs to be able to do is clear the DPS requirements in duty finder. Which currently with echo, I believe that they would be able to accomplish that in every DF scenario existing. Remember the original days when BRD damage was on par with everyone else? I was a MNK in those days and for MONTHS I was told "ranged DPS or gtfo" in HM and EX primals because BRD brought utility, mobility, and the same DPS as the other classes... why bring anything else? The lower DPS is the only thing actively keeping 4x BRD/MCH from being the way that raiding is done.

Support as its own archtype is non-existant but to pretend that BRD and MCH aren't closer to support than the other classes is asinine. All jobs bring a certain level of utility but not the same as mass refresh on the healers or mass TP regen on every DPS. These are 2 completely different tiers of utility. You have historically had a guaranteed spot because of them which is more than any other class can say, so yes, it is a good thing.

Congratulations for supporting the idea of restrictions based on class though... "We have BRDs and MCHs that produce the same damage while being mobile and adding massive utilities? Who needs anything else?"... Great eh? This also has precedent from the early days.

For the record, I'm not saying that BRDs and MCHs should not get a buff, I absolutely think that they should... they should certainly not be behind a WAR in DPS... but they do not need to be doing the same damage as every other job while maintaining all the benefits of ranged DPS. You can argue that WM will tie them down now but since that's a DPS loss at the moment then nothing has really changed. The real gist of my post was that if the OP can wait until whatever rebalancing happens, there's likely nothing wrong with being a MCH if that's what he really wants to be.

[RiceisNice]

...

>More with how the fights were designed back then. Garuda would assrape any melee with wicked wheel. Titan laughed at monk stacks. Now you had FCoB where monks were master dps and had among the best utility from dragon kick. Those issues were more on a fight-by-fight basis, not what was inherently wrong with the class(es), such as DRG's abyssmal magic defense in FCoB.

> Can you really say that this is the case now? There has been quite a bit of homogenization with specific roles, as well as improvements on some of their short comings (such as monk stacks or SMN versitility). I can't even say that I use TP/MP anymore unless the fight has gone completely south (which is typically unrecoverable anyway), even in FCoB after we solidified our healing habits.

>People overrate the value of mobility, especially when it's in comparison to melee dps. Now we have BRDs and MCHs who have to stay stationary akin to a BLM, yet their dps still falls short on top of questionable design (GB doing less than without for one)

>In the end, people highly value the support when honestly it's a bit overrated, especially when people try to bring this up as one of the reasons why their dps should be a bit behind. They already get a dps penalty anyway for using them in the first place.

Really, in the end I'd wish they'd at least buff GB and WM so that it's decent increase instead of a minor, if not a loss. The fact it has a 3 second cast time is a good indicator that they didn't want us swapping this on a whim, but all post-50 abilities require this stance anyway

[RiceisNice]

...

This would only be true for progression. Once its regular or farming content (or really dungeon content), having lower dps by default end up being cumbersome.

And even then, BRD's tp/mp regen is more controlled when it comes to burst or spur of a moment (healer died or ressing), while machinist's is tied to their dps cooldown (hypercharge) which eats away at their overall output if they dont use it on cooldown in favor of saving it for such moments.

[Alchemii]

This would only be true for progression. Once its regular or farming content (or really dungeon content), having lower dps by default end up being cumbersome.

And even then, BRD's tp/mp regen is more controlled when it comes to burst or spur of a moment (healer died or ressing), while machinist's is tied to their dps cooldown (hypercharge) which eats away at their overall output if they dont use it on cooldown in favor of saving it for such moments.

Not completely, Promotion can still be used for TP/MP Regen without Hypercharge. However, yea it's a weakened form and MCH will still probably never get picked for a Raid over a BRD, and let's be honest since BRD has been around since 2.0 there are no shortage of them.

[RiceisNice]

Not completely, Promotion can still be used for TP/MP Regen without Hypercharge. However, yea it's a weakened form and MCH will still probably never get picked for a Raid over a BRD, and let's be honest since BRD has been around since 2.0 there are no shortage of them.

Thats what I mean. Without hypercharge, the regen from promotion is pretty piss poor. It's not going to save your healers from running out of mana if they're dangerously low from dying or ressing.

[ZodiacSoldier]

Not completely, Promotion can still be used for TP/MP Regen without Hypercharge. However, yea it's a weakened form and MCH will still probably never get picked for a Raid over a BRD, and let's be honest since BRD has been around since 2.0 there are no shortage of them.

But isn't the MP Refresh Potency of Promotion 30, just like Mage's Ballad, and the TP refresh is 30 TP per tic just like Army's Paeon. Only difference is that BRD song is centered around caster and MCH Promotion is centered around his turret (each have their benefits depending on situation/fight).

Why exactly would raids always pick BRD over MCH, wasn't their DPS similar to each other? I haven't really gotten them to 60 yet so havent gotten a chance to try them at max level yet, but would like to eventually.