memorial service for MCH

[RiceisNice]

Well, on paper, MCH doesn't look that bad A Ninja's basic combo of Spinning Edge (150), Gust Slash (200), and Aeolian Edge (320) has a total potency of 670. For MCH we have Split Shot (168), Slug Shot (216), and Clean Shot (240) plus three turret attacks of 94 damage would give us a total potency of 906. If you're using ammo, that increases to 966 potency total, which is massive and the reason why they added proc chance. The proc chance should keep us about even with other jobs for basic combo damage. We also have a really strong DoT in Lead Shot.
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Lower weapon damage and a longer GCD (ninja has huton). Ninjas also get two DoTs, 20% damage boost with no strings attached (compared to hot shot using a GCD) and two oGCDs which are effectively stronger than both our graze/blank (if applicable), three if you count raiton/fuuma as a oGCD. They're also not dependent on having a DRG to buff their damage through resistance.

A lot of it is sound on paper, but some aspects of the class does not make any sense and even the numbers show if you break it down (that is, full time GB amounting to a very small, if not straight up damage loss). Wildfire gets defense calculated twice against it, so it's not a true 30% damage increase within that duration, and it's not ideal for current primals because the vulnerability phases don't last long enough for it to trigger (unless you throw it out at the start of your cooldowns rather than the end)

[Tsilyi]

1-2-1-3-2-3
140+180+140+200+180+200 = 1040 potency

I'm not a number cruncher. Is there a particular reason you propose the numerical order like this? Does it have to do with ammo going on certain abilities or not? Assuming no ammo at all and perfect world procs, 1-2-3-1-2-3 is also 1040 potency.

looking at ammo now, it adds 20 potency to each attack. This is additive, right? I feel like I'm missing something. Multiple people have suggested this 1-2-1-3-2-3 over 1-2-3-1-2-3 and I've been going over both, but I don't know the actual math behind the differences.

[gzuscry]

Take into consideration that devs prolly are on infinite stack of draconian potions and have best crit food on all the time, they sit on the notion that some 2 other player prolly have buffed them to the oblivion, so they come out and claim that MCH has enaugh dmg.
To put MCH players at rest all they have to do is provide proof with timed kills in lvl 60 4man dungeons and 3 MCH party on EX primals. Just need to post those videos, nothing like some video footage. Words are the most single unreliable evidence in the real world. We need some hard evidence not a claim from devs standpoint.
Or give us training dummy instances with 3 moving training dummies and mock aoe's with regular random paterns. just some small enaugh room for possible with up to 4 players so they can go in and train basic rotations so we are on the move, Lets say timed instance with 5-10 mins after the instance ends we are presented with the REAL DPS numbers from ingame engine, hell, they can even throw in enmity graph after the instance to show how enmity was distributed. Lorewise its so easy to implement, those goblins looks like are keen on machinery so its possible they repurposed some building in Idillyshire.

[maelor]

After weeks of involvement with and playin with members of my FC who are MCH I can safely say that this entire thread is completely off. 1. MCH does great dmg. 2. MCH has INCREDIBLE support capacity to make the rest of the party do better dmg... which means MCH brings damage. 3. ALL of its animations are as unique and original as any of the other 2.x classes minus ninja.... i.e. nothing looks like a MCH in combat. 4. I have witnessed the burning pitch move in action... idk what kind of math you people are doing but it does a HELL OF A LOT OF DAMAGE!.

Finally back on the not of bad animations.... have any of you even seen ricochet? It is by far one of the coolest looking moves in the game.... from ANY class.

MCH rocks and is performing fantastically.

Great job SE! Players, stop complaining about things that are clearly (and by clearly I mean demonstrated with math) not broken, or even lacking and start complaining about things that actually need help.

[RiceisNice]

I'm not a number cruncher. Is there a particular reason you propose the numerical order like this? Does it have to do with ammo going on certain abilities or not? Assuming no ammo at all and perfect world procs, 1-2-3-1-2-3 is also 1040 potency.

looking at ammo now, it adds 20 potency to each attack. This is additive, right? I feel like I'm missing something. Multiple people have suggested this 1-2-1-3-2-3 over 1-2-3-1-2-3 and I've been going over both, but I don't know the actual math behind the differences.

Ammo is better used on split shot over clean shot if applicable. The former adds a 40 potency hit for continuing the combo +20 from ammo to split shot. Cleanshot only gets the +20 increase and no combo extension.

Another reason is that you could hold off procs for instant casts if you're in GB. But...GB...

[Tsilyi]

Aha, I knew there was something I wasn't factoring in. It FELT stronger, but I didn't really know why. It makes sense now, and yeah the GB instant cast thing I was thinking but... GB ;-;

[SovereignAegis]

After weeks of involvement with and playin with members of my FC who are MCH I can safely say that this entire thread is completely off. 1. MCH does great dmg. 2. MCH has INCREDIBLE support capacity to make the rest of the party do better dmg... which means MCH brings damage. 3. ALL of its animations are as unique and original as any of the other 2.x classes minus ninja.... i.e. nothing looks like a MCH in combat. 4. I have witnessed the burning pitch move in action... idk what kind of math you people are doing but it does a HELL OF A LOT OF DAMAGE!.

Finally back on the not of bad animations.... have any of you even seen ricochet? It is by far one of the coolest looking moves in the game.... from ANY class.

MCH rocks and is performing fantastically.

Great job SE! Players, stop complaining about things that are clearly (and by clearly I mean demonstrated with math) to not be broken or even lacking, and start complaining about things that actually need help.

Ricochet only deals 100 damage to a single target and requires you to be in gauss barrel (arguably the one ability that is inherently damaging to the class). Losing auto attacks AND becoming immobile is a massively huge DENT in the damage a MCH will do in any of these fights. For instance taking a MCH to neverreap you will get a lot more abilities off PERIOD on that final boss where it knocks you around like a ragdoll. And we can expect bosses to be like this, for instance The Vault's final boss requires a heinous amount of movement. I severely doubt in anything but the most simple boss fights (The Aery for instance) you will not be punished for that cast time/missing Auto attacks. Only time I ever use Gauss is when I am in an AOE-farm situation, in which case it is clearly better. Anything else it is a miserable decision.

Overcharge either does one of the following: doubles MP/TP output (to 60/tick from 30/tick), increases magic (ONLY MAGIC) damage received by target by 5% for 15 seconds, increase physical (ONLY PHYSICAL) damage taken by 5% for 15 seconds. On a 2 minute cooldown timer with arguably the most valuable resource that the MCH brings (MP/TP) utilizing overcharge in a raid that counts to increase damage by those marginal amounts is a heinous joke. Even Bard can separate their double-MP/TP song separate from their MUCH MORE (DOUBLE) potency damage increase foes requiem. Hell they can even make foes double if they are burning a boss/dungeon. That makes it a 20% damage increase, not 5%.

Rendmind / Dismantle: 5%. FIVE PERCENT damage decrease from a single target on a shared cooldown timer for 10seconds duration and 90s SHARED cooldown. Virus from SMN/SCH, monk's intelligence debuff that is spammable, etc makes this look horrendous. HORRENDOUS.

Also if it does a hell of a lot of damage then that's wonderful... just means EVERYTHING deals "A LOT OF DAMAGE". Warriors deal more, white mages deal more, scholars deal more... hell AST deals more because their potency is the same as WHM that are actively outdpsing MCH in the field. And the "utility" that a MCH brings PALES in comparison to the utility a whitemage brings. I see a lot of raid groups starting to argue they'll take another healer who can off-heal and focus on dpsing over a brd/mch.


So the parody now is that anything a MCH can do a BRD can do better. They restore mp/tp just as well as a MCH and can offer pre-cast cleanse of conditions, damage increase on demand, etc. There is not a single unique thing a MCH offers.

[RiceisNice]

...

I'm pretty sure that comment was sarcasming with his wording and the partenthesis.

Also, ricochet is 100+300 potency. The 300 is split evenly between targets (which might I add, is pretty shitty esp for a 1 minute CD ability). On a single target it'll hit for 400 total.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

If anything, I'd say the cooldowns on our most useful skills is where it all bites us in the ass. Not Reload/Quick Reload actually. Those feel right. But Wildfire, Rapid Fire, Dismantle/Rend, Heartbreak, and Hypercharge don't need to be on such long cooldowns, especially for the not-so-great damage/potencies/up times they have. Kinda like the DRGs and Jumps before. Great tools, takes too long to have access to them again. I do hope SE's looking at that too. Just that alone could do a lot to improve MCH.

[Ryaz]

@SovereignAegis: Acutally, most testing shows that GB gives better damage. Yea, you may lose a little while having to move, but it evens out pretty well. It's not a giant dent. And Ricochet actually hits for 400 potency is there's a single target-- does one hit at 100 potency and one at 300. I've had crits hit well over 5k with it. I use GB all the time-- even on the first boss of Fractal, who's an AoE machine. It's all about slide casting. And once proc, it's instant cast. The only time I'm casting is for Hot Shot, Lead Shot or Split Shot. I still think we shouldn't lose auto-attacks as GB should be a damage increase instead of just evening out, but it's not bad when you get used to it.

Hypercharge also double the potency of the turrets attacks.