memorial service for MCH

[OmegaStrongtan]

There needs to be a safety web for RNG.
Fail? next chance is 60%, Fail again? next chance will be 70% ...
On proc it will reset back to 50% chance.
Maybe add a bonus if you are lucky enough to hit multiple 1 2 3 combos in a row? But yeah RNG needs some safety web for sure. I liked my MCH in the beginning but having no luck with procs made me stop using mine.

[Ryaz]

Well, I personally keep GB on all the time and I've adapted to slide casting. I may lose a split shot cast every now and then, but it's usually not that bad. It also gives me Gauss Round to break up the monotony during down time from Reload. Is it a dps loss? Maybe. We haven't really had any parses from dungeons or primals to really show either way. Everything is based on test dummies. I'd like to see some real parses from actual content.

[Hypie]

Well, I personally keep GB on all the time and I've adapted to slide casting. I may lose a split shot cast every now and then, but it's usually not that bad. It also gives me Gauss Round to break up the monotony during down time from Reload. Is it a dps loss? Maybe. We haven't really had any parses from dungeons or primals to really show either way. Everything is based on test dummies. I'd like to see some real parses from actual content.

Problem is you can get banned for posting actual parser data(forum AND game). its like the fight club, everybody knows its there but nobody is allowed to show you.

[RedHare]

Before the Rapid Fire + Gauss Barrel nerf, I felt pretty let down already. Now I'm just wondering what they're going to do. Even animations are unimpressive. I remember when they showed the MACHINIST at a live event. Even YoshiP looked bored.

More disappointing because NINJA, the new class before the HEAVENSWARD, really added some variety into the roster.

MACHINIST plays like another execution of BARD, aligning buffs with *one* burst combo...And waiting. It requires more effort to be mediocre than the other classes to be amazing. (I don't think that is an exaggeration.)

Why the need for it to be proc based, at all? Is it really implausible to have SPLIT SHOT > SLUG SHOT > CLEAN SHOT be a regular combo?

If there was a real need for a SUPPORT class within the mechanics of XIV, then I'd be much warmer to it. Still though, will be my main Ranged DPS.

[Duelle]

MACHINIST plays like another execution of BARD, aligning buffs with *one* burst combo...And waiting. It requires more effort to be mediocre than the other classes to be amazing. (I don't think that is an exaggeration.)

Why the need for it to be proc based, at all? Is it really implausible to have SPLIT SHOT > SLUG SHOT > CLEAN SHOT be a regular combo?

My guess is that when they started designing MCH, they decided one of their rules for physical ranged DPS is that it had to be like BRD in a way. Serving a similar purpose while having the same/similar utility (meaning instead of competing for DPS slots with BLM, SMN, DRG, NIN and MNK, MCH is only competing with BRD). Of course, this also trickles into it having similar gameplay; a problem made worse by using the same mechanics in the post-50 game for both jobs.

Back in ARR's beta they talked about the fact that combos as known by melee don't really fit a ranged class like archer/BRD, which is why they went with procs. I originally figured that for the sake of making the jobs different gameplay-wise, they'd design MCH with weaker attacks that are instant and heavier attacks with cast times, and perhaps interactions between shots (basically the idea behind Wildfire but expanded). Hence why I'm of the belief Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet shouldn't exist, yet they do because this is the gimmick through which you see changes in gameplay (I'm guessing to match up to the new systems added for MNK, DRG and SMN, though those systems added to gameplay rather than take away).

[Caitlyn]

When designing the MCH, the developer must goes like:

"Hey, I like that BLM swift-cast and proc-stuff. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that Dragonkick and Combo-stuff from the MNK. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like the Songs and Stuns a BRD can do. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that Crit-, DoT- and Damage-Buff-Skill from our DRGs. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that pet from the SMN. Lets add it to the Machinist"
"Hey, I like that Jutsu-stuff from NIN. Nah, that would be to much."

"What about damage?" - "Fuck it, we got a class which got everything from nearly any other DPS-class. Maybe we must nerf it later, because it looks to powerfull right now".


At the moment, I dont see any reasons to take a MCH into a fight, if the group got already a BRD. Nearly every class got their own skill in regenerating TP/MP. No need to have 2 classes which can do.

Its quite pointless to sacrifice one dps-slot for another support-class, which cant even support as good as the BRD already does. On the other hand, the DPS-gap spreads even more. Maybe SE have to add an additional dps-slot for non-BRD/MCH, when a MCH already joined the party.

Ironically, knowing that BRD and MCH do much lower damage than any other dps classes, they implemented 2 big DPS-checks called "'Bismarck" and "Ravana".


Nevertheless. I thought, the MCH will be a challenging class to supplement other DPS classes. But for now, its just a weak BRD-clone with guns and procs. In Raid, every MCH will be nothing more than this:

[RedHare]

Back in ARR's beta they talked about the fact that combos as known by melee don't really fit a ranged class like archer/BRD, which is why they went with procs. I originally figured that for the sake of making the jobs different gameplay-wise, they'd design MCH with weaker attacks that are instant and heavier attacks with cast times, and perhaps interactions between shots (basically the idea behind Wildfire but expanded). Hence why I'm of the belief Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet shouldn't exist, yet they do because this is the gimmick through which you see changes in gameplay (I'm guessing to match up to the new systems added for MNK, DRG and SMN, though those systems added to gameplay rather than take away).

I hope they revisit that logic.

RELOAD and QUICK RELOAD *don't* actually add a whole lot to gameplay. Unlike MUDRAs where you can improvise and adjust depending on the fight. All a MACHINIST can do is sit on RELOAD and wait for other COOLDOWNs to align.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

You know, you're absolutely right. I can make points without being sassy or whatnot. I was merely giving back what was given. Nice? No. Fair? Probably not. But it's said, done, and past tense now.

As for MCH, there's no way I'm going to claim to be a pro at a job that's not even 2 weeks old yet. I mean yes, coming from Bard, some things were pretty similar (keep Hot Shot and Lead Shot up like Straight Shot & DoTs), other things came with time or trial and error (every now and then I STILL accidentally refresh my Lead Shot right after a Reassemble). The rest, honestly, comes from simply TRYING things. Not parses. Not following someone's days-old "this is how you play this" guide. Doing it my own damn self.

Just tonight, purely on a whim, I decided to practice on a dummy. What kind of numbers can I pull with no turret, no buffs, no ammo, and NOT using procs? That was the question Honestly, at i163, with an upgraded Law weapon, I was pulling (generally) low 600s [this is raw damage numbers on hit] with Split Shot. Slug and Clean were generally low to mid 400s. BUT! I did discover that our 1-2-3 is NOT a linear combo, as I'm sure many already knew. If you're willing to sacrifice the damage that could be done, you can easily use Slug Shot and proc Clean, go BACK and use Split, proc Slug, use your proc-Clean, use your proc-Slug, and still potentially get ANOTHER proc Clean Shot. Without Ammo. In a nutshell: 2 (proc 3), 1 (proc 2), 3, 2 (possibly proc 3 again), 3. And you could possibly do that infinitely.

Yes, that's heavily reliant on RNG, and maybe more technical than it needs to be, but that was done several times intentionally, not consistently, without Reloads or Quick Reloads. And since Reload/Quick Reload can work retroactively (I can fire a proc-Slug Shot, RL/QR then still get a proc-Clean) imagine how you can work that to your advantage. No, you're not going to suddenly pull amazing DPS out of a hat with that, but it beats 1-1-1-1-1-waiting for 2-1-1-2!-nope, no 3-1-1-1-1. . .

Fact is, it's a 2 week old job. NO ONE is an expert yet. No one can even claim it, especially with defeatist threads like this. Personally, I'll take that challenge. I don't care to be considered an expert, I'm only interested in doing my best with what I'm given, and I don't think what I've been given is so unusable at all. If it were, I'd have seen it WELL before 60. But I haven't. I haven't done any Ex Primals yet, no, but nor have I been kicked from anything, excluded from anything, or performed so terribly that the party suffered for it. Why? Because I'm willing to switch it up. Willing to try it my own way and maybe learn something - good or bad - in the process. I didn't start with 1-1-1, and I have no need of it now.

Am I the best? Nope. Will I ever be? Probably not. Do I care? NO. I like Machinist. THAT is why I play it. I was excited for it the moment I saw it, and I switched mains for it. I have no regrets, and few complaints. Yes, it definitely needs a buff. And shorter cooldowns on some key skills. But it's not enough to call it quits. So yeah, when I say "R.I.P. pretenders" I'm calling out all the people who are so easily giving up. I accepted the good and bad of Bard. Pre-nerf, post-nerf. I'll take Machinist as it is now, and hope for better. If not, then I do the best with what I've got.

[Atlaworks]

A pretty good post back at the bottom of page 3

Thanks for your rebuttal! It is good rebuttal. I like this post.

I do agree too- I pull semi-decent numbers on the class myself, and while it takes a lot of effort, and I don't have bard experience to fall back on, the reason I stopped playing it isn't because I'm personally doing underwhelming damage; I put it aside because I don't want to drag other people I'm partying with down due to it's underwhelming damage, the community stigma against MCH as a whole, the fact that most bard skills are flat-out better like their TP/MP regens or Misery's End versus Heartbreak, the total lack of word on their situation from SE... and that last kick in the musket balls the hotfix gave us finished it.

I'm fine dragging myself down. But I don't want to ruin other people's play time because the class I enjoy is ill-balanced and dead weight. Sure, it's not as doom and gloom as some people are saying, but it's really the most depressing because there's no sign it will get any better.