to Yoshi P. (Please read)

[Jynx]

Note: Content in Final Fantasy XI lasted so long not because it was difficult or challenging, but because of the absurd drop rates, the time wasting game mechanics, etc.

Those time wasting mechanics did make the aquisition of items rather hard. If you couldn't/wouldn't invest the time to get a item you didn't get it. If you couldn't get it yourself you bought it, because the game could support itself like that.

I'm not sure what people think "Hard" is, "Hard" is not just something that requires a specific skillset/rank to acomplish. If you reason that a time investment is not adding difficulty addine a learning curve itself is not difficult either. Learning is nothing more than investing your time and being able to apply the knowledge gained in said timeframe.

You have to spend time to learn your class, skills, party, zones, monsters. It's not so absurd to think you might need to also spend time actually aquiring the item. Boiling it down to nothing but "Skill" is pointless as to make anything worthwhile a actual reward the content would have to be extremly hard to give any real "Hell yeah!" effect when you obtained the item.

Luck is a factor in designing good gameplay elements as well, it can't always boil down to Kill ____ Get ____ 100% of the time. If you think that it is...I just don't know what to say.

[ChronicalSin]

Those time wasting mechanics did make the aquisition of items rather hard. If you couldn't/wouldn't invest the time to get a item you didn't get it. If you couldn't get it yourself you bought it, because the game could support itself like that.

I'm not sure what people think "Hard" is, "Hard" is not just something that requires a specific skillset/rank to acomplish. If you reason that a time investment is not adding difficulty addine a learning curve itself is not difficult either. Learning is nothing more than investing your time and being able to apply the knowledge gained in said timeframe.

You have to spend time to learn your class, skills, party, zones, monsters. It's not so absurd to think you might need to also spend time actually aquiring the item. Boiling it down to nothing but "Skill" is pointless as to make anything worthwhile a actual reward the content would have to be extremly hard to give any real "Hell yeah!" effect when you obtained the item.

Luck is a factor in designing good gameplay elements as well, it can't always boil down to Kill ____ Get ____ 100% of the time. If you think that it is...I just don't know what to say.

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/087/42...gif?1292043825

[Orcishgrappler]

I am glad Yoshida has the sense to go in the opposite direction of FFXI in terms of absurd time sinks. You should either go back to it or let it go.

Note: Content in Final Fantasy XI lasted so long not because it was difficult or challenging, but because of the absurd drop rates, the time wasting game mechanics, etc. That only served to mount tension and enmity between players and Linkshells because of the absurd time it took to get anything worthwhile.

Games should not rely on time sinks to retain players. Each day it passes I am more convinced the worst enemy FFXIV has, second only to Square-enix himself, is FFXI players that are still stuck in an era of gaming that is no longer realistic or feasible.

Wow im so glad you said this. I 100% agree with this. Times have changed but many of the FF 11 fans are stuck in the past. Less time sinks more actual content is what we need. The 45 dungeon is a great example of something done well. If you beat batral you can get gear/items everytime! Wow is that not amazing!? (no, its not amazing it is just standard for todays MMO games). I honestly feel that If Yoshida listened to the FF 11 fans 100% this game would never make it in the long term. (I'm a big FF 11 fan and I know how resistant to change we can be ^^)

Now that that is out of the way, Yoshida get me my Bard,Puppetmaster,Samuri,Moghouse,Ah,Mailboxed, and Maat Fights!

[KalaKenshu]

I am glad Yoshida has the sense to go in the opposite direction of FFXI in terms of absurd time sinks. You should either go back to it or let it go.

Note: Content in Final Fantasy XI lasted so long not because it was difficult or challenging, but because of the absurd drop rates, the time wasting game mechanics, etc. That only served to mount tension and enmity between players and Linkshells because of the absurd time it took to get anything worthwhile.

Games should not rely on time sinks to retain players. Each day it passes I am more convinced the worst enemy FFXIV has, second only to Square-enix himself, is FFXI players that are still stuck in an era of gaming that is no longer realistic or feasible.

Couldn't agree with this more.

[Feln]

FFXI was definitely my favorite MMO, and I am one of the people that would like nothing more than a pre-abyssea, prettied up version of FFXI.. However, I do understand that this is a different game and I wouldn't suggest that 14 be turned into just that.

Though I will say that while people complain about the drop rates in FFXI being retardedly low, be it for a piece of armor, a weapon, or some silly piece of cloth used to create a piece of armor/weapon, it is what kept us coming back and throwing ourselves headfirst into the grind. It was so damn great to be one of the few guys in my linkshell that actually had Byakko's haidate, because I knew that I had worked months for it. I knew that it was a higher rung on the gear ladder, and it felt damn good stylin' on those chumps who didn't have it, and kept examining me every time I ran through Jeuno or Whitegate.

Again, you say you don't want a challenge comparable to 11, nor do you want lengthy respawn timers or single digit drop rates, but you don't mention how your forum post somewhere down the line will be "I have all the endgame gear only two months into the game. Time to move on to something else.". Granted, the low level gear dropped by the random world bosses is not very much to gush over, since they are almost always just the stepping stone between the previous piece of gear and the next. I mean, take the Howling Talons for example. The claws right after them are better, and there is no alternative to a set of pug weapons at that level. On the other hand Leaping Boots from Lizzy were something that took time, effort, and probably a few busted keyboards, in order to get, and they f'cking lasted. They were worth it, and it was not uncommon to see people wearing them up until 40-50s when they get their AF, or just something with more accuracy/dex on them. They were awesome boots that made people tell you how jealous they are, and how they had yet to accomplish what you just did. Emperor/Empress Hairpins lasted just as long, and even though they didn't give you any sort of viewable hat or hairpin, it was a feat all in it's own to have it. It made it apparent to others that you played to win, and won. It opened doors that were otherwise shut, especially when it came to good linkshell access. It made people compete, as opposed to simply waiting in line.

XI's difficulty and grind were not just those two words - They are both made up of many, many events. Those that complain that things being difficult at all will make people leave, don't realize that things being too easy, where everything end-game is obtained within a fort-night, will make people leave just as fast because there isn't anything left to do until the next update. Rinse and repeat.

I honestly hope things are planned to be changed somewhat, because while I can't complain too much(I just got my hand-to-hand weapons from Cactaur Jack), I do hope, in my heart of hearts, that this game gets some content that I can spend ample amounts of time on if I so please, in order to get back that feeling of accomplishment that came with XI's challenge and difficulty. It was definitely one of the best feelings in and about the entire game,

[ZachCero]

I am glad Yoshida has the sense to go in the opposite direction of FFXI in terms of absurd time sinks. You should either go back to it or let it go.

Note: Content in Final Fantasy XI lasted so long not because it was difficult or challenging, but because of the absurd drop rates, the time wasting game mechanics, etc. That only served to mount tension and enmity between players and Linkshells because of the absurd time it took to get anything worthwhile.

Games should not rely on time sinks to retain players. Each day it passes I am more convinced the worst enemy FFXIV has, second only to Square-enix himself, is FFXI players that are still stuck in an era of gaming that is no longer realistic or feasible.

lol AMEN, YOU ARE AWESOME!

I was a ff11 player for 11 years and it took retarded amounts of time to do anything. I like the way the direction is going in this game. Many people are complaining they had shit handed to them on a silver platter, but the thing is you have a choice to accept being handed stuff or wait for you to earn it. (referring to broken leves which caused everyone and their mommas to have all r50's)

[BloodPact]

I am glad Yoshida has the sense to go in the opposite direction of FFXI in terms of absurd time sinks. You should either go back to it or let it go.

Note: Content in Final Fantasy XI lasted so long not because it was difficult or challenging, but because of the absurd drop rates, the time wasting game mechanics, etc. That only served to mount tension and enmity between players and Linkshells because of the absurd time it took to get anything worthwhile.

Games should not rely on time sinks to retain players. Each day it passes I am more convinced the worst enemy FFXIV has, second only to Square-enix himself, is FFXI players that are still stuck in an era of gaming that is no longer realistic or feasible.

Perfect. This should be copied/pasted in half of the active threads of this forum. +1.

[Gath]

TL;DR
/10char

[VeranRamaden]

TL;DR
/10char

I used to be on FFXIVCore....then mods started deleting my posts for no reason.
The final straw was when I posted a thread to help aid after the Japanese quake
with websites like redcross, etc etc -- and it was deleted.
You sir are not awesome.

[Sephrick]

1. Leveling

Although I am a little tired of killing raptors and going to the same camps over and over, I still feel shades of FFXI while grinding.

XI had crawlers, crabs and -- later in it's life -- little pink birds. XIV has coblyns and raptors. Same experience.

THE MAIN FOCUS OF LEVELING YOUR CHARACTER SHOULD BE GROUPING.. ANYTHING IS UNACCEPTABLE AND WILL LEAD TO THE DEATH OF THIS GAME.

It's been clear that the focus of this game will be on endgame activities. Thus, they're not messing with some arbitrarily long grind.

The concept seems to be "easy to start, difficult to master." People tend to jump on every single announcement SE makes because it's "zomg easy mode." But they're trying to make a game for a broad audience.

The short, easy exp grind will be for the folks who want start the game and play with friends without needing to spend an arduous six months of severe grinding to just be able to start having fun.

To me, the materia system is for the hardcore crowd. A sort of levels beyond cap. Again, it's easy to start, what with a 100% success on the first attachment, and difficult to master since each attempt carries more risk.

There's the grind people desire.

I know some might say, "but how will new players learn their jobs?" To which I ask, how will any of us learn our jobs? In the next few months SE will not only change, add and delete abilities from classes, but they'll and the job system.

Certainly, we're not all going to go back to level 1 just to grind again to "learn" our new classes and jobs. We'll do that exactly how new players will. By adapting and experiencing fun content with friends.

People seem to get hung up on leveling being the game.

2. Grouping

What's so "normal" about six-member parties other than that being the number in XI? They have a plan, and it involves using four to eight members.

3. Quest

I'd hardly call them worthless. More like "reasonable." I, personally, wish there were repeatable quests that gave just as much exp.

SP from quests was a huge help in getting my MRD to 50. Between those and levequests I got to level on my own schedule instead of shouting for hours to try and build a party only to discover any viable camp was already taken like in XI.

I'm not sure why it should bother anyone if they make leves/quests a viable option for gaining levels. With the upcoming changes like the claim system and exp chain bonuses, parties still will hold superiority over the solo route. But the glacial pace at which one could solo in XI -- when the player base would often ostracize certain jobs making partying nigh impossible at times -- did more harm than good.

4. Crafting

Don't really have a counterpoint. If someone has designed a bot that can successfully craft through the minigame, kudos to them.

5. Sense of acomplishment

It's really in the eye of the beholder. I know some of the more vocal folks on these forums sigh if anyone mentions Darkhold as a challenge. I personallt find it very challenging.

So when I was finally present for a kill, and recieved my Helm of the Lone Knight, I wore it proudly. Even if it isn't exactly the best for that slot. I felt a great sense of accomplishment, and it was delivered through challenging content instead of arbitrary time sinks.

6. Endgame!!

On its way, of course. But you've got to build the basement before you can build the roof.

A. HNM

What else was there to do in the pointless 72 hour wait between dynamis entrances?

Id rather do hnm where people botted then do gay dungeons and other instanced content that is easy and the gear will just become obsolete with a new patch.

The dungeon's sexuality aside, why does something being instanced automatically make it easy?

The only real challenge in XI's HNMs was getting a claim, which was a matter of cheating and proximity to the servers. There's nothing fun about waiting for three or more hours to see your target pop claimed.

Even if you did get a claim, the challenge was over. After that, it was a matter of having enough people to cast cure on the tank and black mages/archers to kill it.

XI was a game designed around spending your career chasing after a handful of items. That's why a lot of what they added over the years were sidegrades at best. It worked fo XI because of the fanbase it attracted early in its life. But XIV needs to be a new game for a new generation.

Instances and raids can be more challenging and more fun than HNMs ever were. The exclusivity allows for better development and the guaranteed chance to participate on one's one pre-planned schedule means more people will be interested in playing.

B. Open world content-

Holy freak was sky and sea amazing.... I mean seriously years and years people spent doing those things.. It offered so much content and was so well done. It let linkshells compete against each other in certain ways. All I will say is if there is no sea/sky in this game I will most likely quit.

Both sky and sea were in a way "instanced" content with public hubs. I quote instanced because they weren't truly instanced, it's just that you could reserve an area for you and your party.

Even the jailers were force spawn mobs.

The only thing that wasn't "private" to the spawning party were the pop items, most of which had miserable drop rates. In the early days it took months sometimes to even fight the NMs just because of competition and drop rates.

Personally speaking, that's not something I ever want to go back to. The absorbent amount of time it took for so many people to get one person a reward was insane.

C. Dungeons- Plain and simple if I wanted to do instanced dungeons id go play other mmos. Not only was darkhold horribly done, it was just a bunch of copy and paste tunnels that offered nothing but repetitiveness. Oh and please do away with gear dropping from chest before the freaking bosses... really??? You want to reward people just for putting a group together and running in a kiling a few lvl 50 mobs to get a few pieces of gear? What a joke. My favorite thing on 11 was that gear was hard to obtain but it made it worthwhile once you got it. A dungeon here and there is ok, but if this is the main focus for endgame content, again I will not play.

The best gear comes from the highest risk. If a group only ever takes the time to get to the first chest, all they're ever going to get are some r50 mage feet. How is that game breaking?

But ultimately that's the point. Once again, easy to start, difficult to master. A few friends can net some exp and pop a few chests. The best of the best can speed run and kill Batraal in the special time limit.

It sounds less like you want to play XIV and more like you want to play XI. Yoshi-P has stated that the game will focus on instanced content. It's a core part of all the things they're changing in patches 1.18-1.21.

As far as Darkhold being "copy and paste." How different can a cavern be? I feel there more than enough unique landmarks in it. Stalagmites, claustrophobic areas, agoraphobic areas, small waterfalls in the wide open areas. There's lots to see if you take the time to look.

D. Make endgame acess for certain things actually hard/worthwhile to obtain..

Hard to argue that something should separate the men from the boys. But in XI it was pointless time sinks. Few things in XI were truly hardcore. People only convinced themselves of that while they stared at their screen unblinking for 10+ hours waiting for a mob to spawn purple.

Instead, it should be something actually challenging. Give everyone a chance to step up to the plate, but be unrelenting in content at which they take a swing.

JUST TO PUT THIS IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS, US FF FANS ARE HARDCORE AND WANT HARDCORE CONTENT NOT THE SAME CONTENT IN OTHER MMOS.

Speak for yourself. I've been an FF fan since I had my NES back in the day. I put seven good years into XI. I want casual. And by casual, I mean I want a fair shot at doing something meaningful on my own schedule.

XI required a minimum of three hours per session to get the most mundane tasks done. I've stuck around in XIV because of the potential in being able to hope on with only an hour or two to play and being able to do something other than watching a moogle spin.

E. Instanced content- There is a place for instanced content such as something like a dynamis, nyzle isle, salvage, ect.. but please make them fun/memorable and something you want to keep coming back to. Please stay away from instanced dungeons.

Again, Yoshi-P has said instances are the future of XIV.

And again, they can be more fun and more challenging than anything XI had to offer.

Sorry if you don't want to do Darkhold or Toto-Rak again, but I find myself doing them on a regular basis. I've even leveled a few classes to 25 just for the fun of being the minimum level in Toto-Rak.

F. Meriting- One of my favorite things about ffxi. Plain and simple I loved it and i wish this game would even go further in detail with it.

Materia seems to be the start of that, though I did enjoy the concept in XI, despite the majority of it being useless. The trouble was endgame min-maxing mentality dictated what merits players were expected to have which sucked all the fun out of it.