Please, Developers, Please! Put an end to Easy Mode thinking

[Rutelor]

HAY GUYS I SOLO'D A R5 QUEST AT R25 THIS GAME IS TOO EASY!!!!!!!!!!!

I expected the fight to be easy. When I was playing FFXI, and after having reached level 60 in my first job, I went back and did many of the early quests in the other cities, to increase my reputation. They were very easy, yes, but they never struck me as inorganic, makeshift or lazily put together. What rubbed me the wrong way, with the one with the dodos, and quite a few others, was the unimaginative situational arrangement of the mobs. They were all, pre-popped, waiting for me in a narrow corner of the world (I know you know where, right before Nanawa.)

And there they sit to this day, hopefully waiting for their executiouners, as a painful reminder of the clumsiness of the design of many of the aspects of this game. There is a clone of this quest, this time one about marmots, also sitting there, milling restlessly, waiting for their demise, nary a few meters away from where the dodos stand.

It's something that fits in the same drawer as those caves, and sections of the terrain that are so disturbingly similar to each other, the one a photocopy of the previous one. Annoying reminders of the mystique-less, design-by-numbers attitude that has taken over somewhere at Square Enix.

You never encountered things like that in FFXI. And all of a sudden I realize that what I miss about that game are not its game mechanics, or its clunky implementation, or the awful interface, but rather the mystique with which this quirky game was built, and the affection that was evidently put into it, an affection that ricocheted all around, and embedded itself in you when you logged off, every time.

[Murugan]

I expected the fight to be easy. When I was playing FFXI, and after having reached level 60 in my first job, I went back and did many of the early quests in the other cities, to increase my reputation. They were very easy, yes, but they never struck me as inorganic, makeshift or lazily put together. What rubbed me the wrong way, with the one with the dodos, and quite a few others, was the unimaginative situational arrangement of the mobs. They were all, pre-popped, waiting for me in a narrow corner of the world (I know you know where, right before Nanawa.)

And there they sit to this day, hopefully waiting for their executiouners, as a painful reminder of the clumsiness of the design of many of the aspects of this game. There is a clone of this quest, this time one about marmots, also sitting there, milling restlessly, waiting for their demise, nary a few meters away from where the dodos stand.

It's something that fits in the same drawer as those caves, and sections of the terrain that are so disturbingly similar to each other, the one a photocopy of the previous one. Annoying reminders of the mystique-less, design-by-numbers attitude that has taken over somewhere at Square Enix.

You never encountered things like that in FFXI. And all of a sudden I realize that what I miss about that game are not its game mechanics, or its clunky implementation, or the awful interface, but rather the mystique with which this quirky game was built, and the affection that was evidently put into it, an affection that ricocheted all around, and embedded itself in you when you logged off, every time.

Though I would like challenging stuff too, this is a great point and I wish someone at SE would read it.

[Rutelor]

I didn't speak about hard fights, I spoke about challenge, born from depth and complexity. I would also like sidequests (and everything else int he world) to seem organic and unified, not--like my example in the OP--a makeshift addition, all seams and clumsy design, if there was any design at all.

I don't have anything about a casual game, on the contrary. I just don't think we should slack the vigilance about laid-back design, rushed design and boring game structures, whichever they might be.

[TessaJalloh]

trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls trolling genuine players.

i find the game plenty challenging, i definately don't count myself as hardcore, and i personally believe that the chocobo/seals deal is fine. Got to do three grand company quests and then caravan defense for the rest of those seals. OR get to R45 and have a good group for darkhold to do into the dark for the 4k seals.

i'd say that's plenty enough challenge to warrent being rewarded.

Things will be no doubt easy for Rank 50 players right now, because at this moment they're the creme de la creme. And there is no true endgame content for them to strive at right now i'll admit. but you must understand that just because it's not there RIGHT NOW doesn't mean it won't come. There's so many things being worked on that take precidence, if you're not enjoying yourself, take a damn break.

It's not like you're paying anything right now anyway to justify your apparent anguish.

[Burn]

"Your quest is to kill 5 Stuffed Dodos...! Oh... Yes... BTW... Here's the exact spot where they will be waiting for you to slaughter them."

That should've been enough to ring alarm bells, but, optimistically, I ran to the indicated spot, thinking that perhaps, on the way there, I would be overcome by difficulty and strife... but no. It was just a stroll in the park to get to the spot. Actually, that day, I didn't even cross a r1 mob, NONE!

But nothing really prepared me to what was going to follow: On arrival to the loudly marked point on my map, I encountered 17 fat, non-agressive, low-rank Dodos impatiently fighting each other for the turn to meet my deadly wand. I killed 10 of them with one AoE and the completion message appeared. I was r25 at the time, and the sidequest might have been a r5 one, but still... really, SE? Not a brief search, or some environmental puzzle, not even a brief wait for re-spawn???

Still, my optimist self decided "Oh, it's too early for complaints, they cannot be this obvious! They'll fix the spawn rate later, or something.... They just introduced the sidequests, there's tweaking to come, no doubt...! Besides, it's only a r5 quest!"

Ha!

Let's jump over the myriad other disappointments concerning challenge in this game that have slowly but surely set on since then. Let's turn to today's announcemets:

And now, you are introducing one of the most sought-after features to the game, one of the most desired items ever, and without any sense of build-up you announce simultaneously that any player (ok, not "any" but almost) will be able to both rent AND own chocobos. And I say to myself "Ah, but no doubt the quest to acquire the right to own them will be formidable... it will be peppered with peril, sacrifice and death!!"

Well, not really. You might as well have planted 17 grazing chocobos right next to the dodos, and made us go to the spot, touch one and have it instantly develop feelings of affection for us. For crying out loud!!!! We can still rent them! Do you really have to give us a title of ownership for meager 3k seals????

Is this how this game is going to be? For real?? I've wasted myself and my reputation defending, you, SE. Now, please, please... Deliver!

We come to these games to feel like heroes, not to pay you so that you stroke our egos by calling us one at the turn of 3000 seals. Just getting the right to rent chocobos, one of the great stimulating engines of low-level FFXI players was ten times harder (and more fun) than that!

Depth, complexity, challenge... not easy, breezy, hello-kitty stuff. I already own a Free Realms account, thankyouverymuch!

Please go jump off a cliff

[weeble]

Please go jump off a cliff

please ..you first

[Neptune]

@OP, you should campaign for Loyalty Mode. I believe it includes a hardcore mode where getting your chocobo takes 10x longer and it toggles off everyone else's chocobo on your screen. You will just see them moving slowly past you as you walk around on the long chocobo quest.

[Rutelor]

@OP, you should campaign for Loyalty Mode. I believe it includes a hardcore mode where getting your chocobo takes 10x longer and it toggles off everyone else's chocobo on your screen. You will just see them moving slowly past you as you walk around on the long chocobo quest.

For the benefit of those that might be misled by this statement, let me clarify:

I don't want you or me to have to undergo torture to get the Chocobo. All I want is for it to feel like it's really worth something. Don't you get a little bit annoyed when you go to Dzemael and see all other mages waiting to go in wearing exactly the same gear as you are, (assuming you're a mage?) and also when the item you were so psyched about, when the pieces dropped, all of a sudden feel run-of-the-mill? The attachment to gear, and the longing for it, have to do with facts other than just stats and looks.

I acknowledge the fact that probably we are just at the beginning of a long gear explosion, and soon there will be variety enough to dissipate the feeling that we are wearing uniforms. But I just wish the game allowed me time to covet something before it lands on my lap. Building up desire to be long-standing, and the subtle frustration of that long-standing desire has been the core principle of the art of seduction since the beginning of time. I think the problem with the game lies not in its difficulty mechanics. On the contrary... Dzemael itself is a proof of that. The problem is with the understanding of the psychological processes that determine stimulus, attachment, and emotional connection with a process or a place.

Our developers, like developers all over the world, are more concerned with obtaining their long-standing Holy Grail, the dream of all dreams, the WoW Killer, for them to be able to care about the dreams of their players, and about creating equally alluring Holy Grails within their games. Copy the formula, because the Market is Lord.

If you don't see what I am talking about, fair enough. You don't see it. But there is no need to get sarcastic and perhaps offensive just because we see different things. I don't want you punished because of my views, but by the same token, you shouldn't want me punished because of yours.

R

[Neptune]

For the benefit of those that might be misled by this statement, let me clarify:

I don't want you or me to have to undergo torture to get the Chocobo. All I want is for it to feel like it's really worth something. Don't you get a little bit annoyed when you go to Dzemael and see all other mages waiting to go in wearing exactly the same gear as you are, (assuming you're a mage?) and also when the item you were so psyched about, when the pieces dropped, all of a sudden feel run-of-the-mill? The attachment to gear, and the longing for it, have to do with facts other than just stats and looks.

I acknowledge the fact that probably we are just at the beginning of a long gear explosion, and soon there will be variety enough to dissipate the feeling that we are wearing uniforms. But I just wish the game allowed me time to covet something before it lands on my lap. Building up desire to be long-standing, and the subtle frustration of that long-standing desire has been the core principle of the art of seduction since the beginning of time. I think the problem with the game lies not in its difficulty mechanics. On the contrary... Dzemael itself is a proof of that. The problem is with the understanding of the psychological processes that determine stimulus, attachment, and emotional connection with a process or a place.

Our developers, like developers all over the world, are more concerned with obtaining their long-standing Holy Grail, the dream of all dreams, the WoW Killer, for them to be able to care about the dreams of their players, and about creating equally alluring Holy Grails within their games. Copy the formula, because the Market is Lord.

If you don't see what I am talking about, fair enough. You don't see it. But there is no need to get sarcastic and perhaps offensive just because we see different things. I don't want you punished because of my views, but by the same token, you shouldn't want me punished because of yours.

R

I get you, but let's put it in perspective. If you're like me, you've played for 1 year already with 0 chocobos. Isn't that enough time to get you properly salivating? Do you really think you need more than what you've already been through?

3,000 seals is nothing to a rank 50, but you're over leveled for this content and wealthy. You aren't taking this into account. To a new character you have to be into the 20s and even if you can complete Toto-Rak (no easy task for a R25) that's only 1,000 seals.

I agree that the dodo killing quests are not compelling but I don't think it supports your argument that the devs want to make super easy content. That is simply content that can be whipped up without a huge investment and something that's present in a lot of other games in this genre. And it's optional to participate in.

Do I get upset standing outside Darkhold with mages wearing my same gear? I don't, but not because I like the lack of individuality. The gear situation is indeed lame but making it rarer or a longer investment to obtain is not going to help either.

***copied from another thread I posted:***
Tanaka had it right by making weapons hold their value and using the Magian Trials system to upgrade legendary weapons. The downside of that though was every new piece of gear other than AF versions was destined for the scrapyard or perhaps at best a macro'd in piece for 1 out of 30 spells. In other words, that system was crap other than that you could hold on to your good gear forever.

The WoW system is also crap although it is awesome for however many weeks you have the best stuff. The plus side of the WoW system is that you can start from any point and there are clear upgrades and clear satisfaction along the way to the top. The downside is the huge scrap pile of obsolete gear.

Whenever you have 2 extremes that are both crap, it tells me there is something missing... We need something that preserves the hard work the artists put into each model, but isn't so extreme to the point that every new piece of gear has to be crap to stay under the stats of the last piece of awesome gear. That's like Napoleon killing everybody that was a fraction of an inch taller than him. There has to be a better way.
***********

To sum up, I see what kind of experience you are looking for, but why fight a battle to convince devs that aren't on your side to begin with and all the while you're playing a severely incomplete game...?

Play Demon's Souls, and then Dark Souls when it comes out. You will forget all about this thread. The kind of thing you want out of an MMO comes with some very serious trade-offs, some of which affect your personal life. Maybe a game like that will someday appear and cater to your taste and solve the inherent problems with attachment systems.. but until then why not enjoy 2 games that are right here, right now?

[Rutelor]

I get you, but let's put it in perspective. If you're like me, you've played for 1 year already with 0 chocobos. Isn't that enough time to get you properly salivating? Do you really think you need more than what you've already been through?

3,000 seals is nothing to a rank 50, but you're over leveled for this content and wealthy. You aren't taking this into account. To a new character you have to be into the 20s and even if you can complete Toto-Rak (no easy task for a R25) that's only 1,000 seals.

I agree that the dodo killing quests are not compelling but I don't think it supports your argument that the devs want to make super easy content. That is simply content that can be whipped up without a huge investment and something that's present in a lot of other games in this genre. And it's optional to participate in.

Do I get upset standing outside Darkhold with mages wearing my same gear? I don't, but not because I like the lack of individuality. The gear situation is indeed lame but making it rarer or a longer investment to obtain is not going to help either.

***copied from another thread I posted:***
Tanaka had it right by making weapons hold their value and using the Magian Trials system to upgrade legendary weapons. The downside of that though was every new piece of gear other than AF versions was destined for the scrapyard or perhaps at best a macro'd in piece for 1 out of 30 spells. In other words, that system was crap other than that you could hold on to your good gear forever.

The WoW system is also crap although it is awesome for however many weeks you have the best stuff. The plus side of the WoW system is that you can start from any point and there are clear upgrades and clear satisfaction along the way to the top. The downside is the huge scrap pile of obsolete gear.

Whenever you have 2 extremes that are both crap, it tells me there is something missing... We need something that preserves the hard work the artists put into each model, but isn't so extreme to the point that every new piece of gear has to be crap to stay under the stats of the last piece of awesome gear. That's like Napoleon killing everybody that was a fraction of an inch taller than him. There has to be a better way.
***********

To sum up, I see what kind of experience you are looking for, but why fight a battle to convince devs that aren't on your side to begin with and all the while you're playing a severely incomplete game...?

Play Demon's Souls, and then Dark Souls when it comes out. You will forget all about this thread. The kind of thing you want out of an MMO comes with some very serious trade-offs, some of which affect your personal life. Maybe a game like that will someday appear and cater to your taste and solve the inherent problems with attachment systems.. but until then why not enjoy 2 games that are right here, right now?

Oh, but I like this game. Isn't it obvious that would be the only feasible reason that would keep me writing this at 15 minutes to 3am? And more than like it, I enjoy it. But it's like with the country in which I live, I choose to be very vocal with criticism, because I believe that if everybody does that, it ultimately will be better, but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. (Well, perhaps if Michele Bachmann wins the presidency, but that's another story.)

And you are right in many of the things that you point out in the post I quote above. I still believe that it is up to us to keep the level up. It's like with the theater, when you start applauding crap, it becomes the rule. Didn't you see that they actually thought they could get away with the material they launched with??