Buff Bards or Riot

[Yoruichi4478]

Well, the issue have been expended to PF as well. Tonight I try to find some Bismarck clear pt and some of them exclude bard from the pf. I know I know, it is their party they can set the rule but it is a bad trend. And the topic of dps come up. Bard do not expect to be on par with the melee but melee expect Bard/mch to be on par with their damage. For example, on Bismarck EX, if the party fail dps check, they will want kick the lowest dps, and who do you think it is the lowest dps atm? Bard and Mch.

This is a disturbing trend to hear about. Bard is my only lvl 60 and I was lvling mch but I hear it's in the same boat as brd and I hate being a caster so I feel sol on a job choice for pf if that is the trend.

[nuyu11]

I'm only have Bard and will use it, about the damage wise I have no comment because not reach lvl 60 yet. But I try to adapt with Bard new style and I wish that we can have our mobility back with new skill, don't lock them with "Wanderer's Minuet".

[Snowaeth]

Wanderers Minuet doesn't fit the BRD kit.
Unlike MCH that has been designed from the ground up with Gauss Barrel fitting the kit (where you can insta cast the barrel under rapid fire and the skills can be insta cast with procs with you can activate with ammo).

WM is just a skill slapped on top of a class that has a ton of OGCD's including refreshing ones that has no guaranteed movement giving abilities that come with WM like the BLM/MCH have and is basically an afterthought in an attempt to balance BRD/MCH which has horribly gone wrong.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

While I do like that video (and still hope to afford my first bow for my birthday this year), I'm of the camp of Bards (and now MCH) that prefer not to waste movement. It's proven very useful for me in raids where positioning and awareness are everything. If I'm trying to stay on the move and, say an aoe appears in the direction I'm traveling, will I have the tame and/or reflex to change direction in time? Or would it be to my advantage to possibly NOT have to move because I wasn't in the line of fire (so to speak) in the first place?

This, I believe, was fundamentally part of the concept for Wanderer's Minuet. Bugs, proc conflicts, and DPS issues aside, it wasn't designed as a tool to limit or take away your mobile advantage. It was designed to help you maximize and boost DPS in times/situations where you couldn't or didn't need to move.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I think the bigger issue - one that was already discussed in the DPS Roles section - is that for too long, we physical ranged DPS have been shoehorned into being "Support" as well as DPS, and thus given baked-in deficiencies. The game has simply outgrown such constraints. Please see here:

BRD (and MCH; please assume the former mostly applies to the latter as well) have a mobile advantage due to being able to move and attack at the same time.
Physical Ranged DPS (PRDPS from this point on) do not have an advantage of movement simply due to dealing lower damage by design, and by further reductions when providing party support - yet another thing we do by design. As such, our advantage is a moot point. We simply trade what could be efficiency for what we perceive as utility.

PRDPS are able to evade damage better due to fighting at range, thus don't deserve to deal damage on par with melees.
Plumes. Landslides. Mistral Shriek. Divebombs. Tethers. Random single target party member attacks. Being a ranged DPS in Turn 7. Turn 11. Rage of Bahamut. . . The battlefield is neither as big or as safe as one might believe, even at range. And inversely, I've found myself moving just as much as PRDPS supposedly do in Turn 11, as a Dragoon. Lest we forget Monks pretty much HAVE to stay on the move for their positionals and essential mechanic evasion. So this idea is largely untrue due to instance/battle design. Plus, how many times have I had to Swiftcast-raise-evade incoming AoE-Cure/Medica/Regen as healer?

PRDPS also support the party, so why should they deal damage on par with other classes/jobs?
Apocatastasis. Eye for an Eye. Virus. Dragoons can buff piercing attacks, Paladins can Cover. Warriors and Ninjas can buff slash attacks. Goad. Battle Litany. Dat Assize tho. . . EVERYONE brings some kind of synergy to the party now, support wise. Support is not exclusive to the PRDPS. We just simply are defined by it, and thus limited by it. Hell, the Bard's literal Limit Break was not that of a DPS til now. This does not need to be so. Support and DPS are not exclusive of each other, not when everyone can do it. Don't make PRDPS trade one for the other. Don't bake it into us to do so.

I could go on, but fact is, as the game has evolved, and other jobs have to meet the current challenge, we have not. We continue to be placed in the Special Snowflake role, only to then realize we AREN'T special at all. So why then are our governing rules so different then? Minuet & Barrel give us a taste of the caster life, and yes, it's a heavy adjustment. But only here do our baked in deficiencies suddenly become a naked shame. In fairness, no, I do not believe we need to deal damage on par with casters simply for being in a casting stance. But if auto attacks really count for so much of our already-low DPS, then we're really being given a crap hand there to have them disabled, no?

This isn't me saying "Get rid of Minuet/Barrel!" or "Let us keep moving still!" or "If we have casting times, let us deal caster damage!". This IS me simply saying, "Square Enix, stop holding us back in the name of 'Support'." If your intent is to make any and all classes viable in content by large, stop low-balling the PRDPS and justifying it with the idea of party support. EVERYONE supports the party, whether they're taking the hits, dealing the damage, healing the damage, or blowing things up extravagantly. I might play a lyre or control a turret, but when it comes down to it, the weapon in my hand is my primary "support" to my party. Stop jamming my weapon.

[NoahArks]

Only thing I'm bothered about is that the brd and mch is too similar. They can basicly use the mp/tp songs, but use the Rook and Bishop turrets instead. Brd has WM and Mch has GB... The only difference is that the mch has a lot higher dps.

[shawnaus1986]

Buff Astro or riot!!!

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Took a bit to type (as it's whyamistillup-o-clock in the morning), but I appended post #112.

More than anything I hope someone in the dev team reads it, or perhaps thinks along similar lines. The way content is changing, we can't afford to bind ourselves to the "old" constraints and confines of "Support DPS".

[Vespar]

Took a bit to type (as it's whyamistillup-o-clock in the morning), but I appended post #112.

More than anything I hope someone in the dev team reads it, or perhaps thinks along similar lines. The way content is changing, we can't afford to bind ourselves to the "old" constraints and confines of "Support DPS".

Largely I agree with your point of view. I dont think any Bard has been asking for dmg on par with melee or caster DPS. Just that SE dont squash what DPS we had to begin with XD

[Duelle]

Took a bit to type (as it's whyamistillup-o-clock in the morning), but I appended post #112.

More than anything I hope someone in the dev team reads it, or perhaps thinks along similar lines. The way content is changing, we can't afford to bind ourselves to the "old" constraints and confines of "Support DPS".

Well, confining BRD to support to begin with was a mistake. I was against it because I had a feeling there would be problems down the road, but people were hell bent on "support" existing in this game because FFXI.

I think the issue is the strength of Army's Paeon and Mage's Ballad relative to other abilities of that nature. BRD can pop them whenever they want and have better access compared to NIN with Goad because songs don't have cooldowns and MP is trivial to general BRD gameplay since none of their other skills require MP. This would mean that to get rid of the stigma while leaving the rest intact you have a few options and none of them pretty:

A) Nerf Paeon and Ballad: As mentioned, raid reliance on these skills has decreased. I fear BRD mains would riot if this were to happen, even if it were in exchange for better damage without gimmicks like WM.

B) Change the mechanic behind songs: Make Paeon and Ballad cooldowns, much like Goad. Cooldown time, set duration, no resource cost. You can then adjust it as necessary to balance it with whatever damage increases BRD would get to be in line with other DPS jobs.

C) A new use for the old songs: Implement a (ugh) stance that changes the effect of Paeon and Ballad when active. I'd call it Siren Sound, turning Paeon and Ballad into songs that affect only the target you're currently attacking with some negative effect (maybe one being a song that makes it easier for BRD to kite and one that deal minor damage per tick, becoming another DoT to keep on the mob in addition to Venomous Bite and Windbite). Really, if SE is convinced they HAVE to give BRD a stance, this is an approach they could have taken.