The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[StouterTaru]

Ah yes Goad, the legendary ability that also restores TP like what we pay a premium for!

As a WAR I see goad in dungeons less than paeon...

Ninja: "Other dps is a smn/blm? Sweet, don't have to worry about goad."

[Warlyx]

There is also the fact in bards case, where were supposed to support, but my question is.. with what? The songs are situational at best and rarely get used, So we have this big dps loss even without using mages ballad and paeon.. why? Especally when said songs are rarely used. If we had like a +10% dmg song that effects everyone but the bard, that we could ALWAYS keep on with no penalty, then I would say we are support, but in the current state were just a gimped dps that has some barely used situational things.

this , on progression we are awesome since healers arent geared or confident enough and may overheal (wasting mp) and dps die to mistakes with invigorate on CD , but once ppl know the encounter what we bring? foe requiem and BV at the start and then subpar dps the whole fight.......that mage boost at the start isnt enough for the lack of dps for the rest of the fight....

thanks god pugs still like to bring a mch/brd just in case, because else both jobs are going to need a new title "benchwarmer"

[Ryaz]

Because the vast majority of those are just you helping yourself while secondarily helping the team.

Whether or not my abilities help myself is moot. The Ninja is still doing stuff to boost the party. His reasons for it don't matter. Ninjas can't use Goad on themselves. Enmity control is more to help the tank than actually boost the Ninja. As a MCH, I also use my abilities to help myself. That TP regen comes in handy when AoEing and Hypercharge on my Rook helps me just as much Trick Attack does for a Ninja. A party buff is a party buff.

[Syzygian]

It seems like a lot of people that wanna have their cake and eat it too and want to play a job that literally has ZERO drawbacks. If BRD did comparable DPS to a MNK or DRG and never had to stop that DPS to handle a mechanic they would be the top DPS job in this game by a landslide AND have the best utility. The game is balanced this way for a reason.

[Zyrusticae]

The game is balanced this way for a reason.

Except it's not "balanced".

When you reach a point where people want to exclude an entire job from their parties, you've failed to reach anything that could ever be termed "balance".

[Panasync]

It seems ...

I would say 2.5 balancing was perfectly fine, could do respectable damage, the core game-play was intact. People wanted it to be capable of more at the sacrifice of the job's core game-play they added in a song/stance, the song stance actually is worse for DPS after an opener, the job is broke.

Most people are perfectly fine not having the highest cap, but when we can't beat tanks there is a serious issue. Asking for competitive DPS is not asking to be the leader in DPS, not to mention we already have the issue when pushing content in the past, it's just we were stacking monks, not bards. Not to mention until this game has an actual support, people need to stop acting like Bard is one. I don't get put into a support role when I queue for a dungeon, I get put into a DPS role.

[Edellis]

Whether or not my abilities help myself is moot. The Ninja is still doing stuff to boost the party. His reasons for it don't matter..

But the effects do. Trick Attack is not a supportive ability, it's just a DPS using a DPS ability that does DPS and allows him (and his teammates) to do more DPS. DPS DPS DPS, you're still just doing your own thing. Look, you'd use Trick Attack whether it boosted damage for you, your teammates, or neither. It's 400 potency. Why wouldn't you?

Bard will only ever sing songs for other players because none of them (save the occasional Paeon if you don't have invigorate) have any benefit to him. 4/5 of their initial job abilities were for everyone BUT the bard. ACTUALLY, 5/5, because until recently, Rain of Death was only useful if you had people under the accuracy cap.

Just because you can target the warrior and press Goad for an instant, off GCD, costless TP buff doesn't make Ninja a support DPS.

[Underdog2204]

Snip

So all these dps skills I'm looking at Venomous Bite, Blootletter, Straight Shot (boosts bards dps/self buff), Hawk's Eye (boosts bards dps/self buff), Flaming Arrow etc are there just for show?

You make no sense, ACH/BRD is chock full of damage dealing skills that atm may awell be throwing pebbles at enemies for all the good they do.

River of Blood, Increased Action Damage, Enchanced Raging Stike etc is there just for the lolz too I suppose -_-

Face it you are a dps that does no damage for no reason other than ninja's and lancers say "nope we workz hardz, being behind the boss iz scary too", meanwhile the boss is busy firing lazers/meteors/throwing sh** at the back line making all ranged run like crazy and they just keep doing positionals un-interrupted... Dodging any melee range attacks must be much harder by way of... Hmm... Oh wait they arn't -_-

I dont's see anything like a "boosts song potency" trait... Why is your primary stat dex and not piety? Conjurer was even removed as a cross class for BRD because SE wanted them more dpsy... Something people frequently forget I have to say... This is something some stone heads failed to grasp...

At the end of the day whether you feel the statement is invalid is your opinion. The ability to utilize utilities like group MP/TP regens and other things comes at the cost of damage for those using it. Hence the reason that bards/machinists have lower general dps is because of this making the initial statement that these classes "do less dps because they have support abilities" completely valid. They also have ranged abilities which plays into the decision to lower their overall dps in favor of increased movement.

If they were to remove all of the buffs and make them completely stationary, the dps increase wouldn't be substantial enough to bring them into raids vs the melee/caster dps. The support songs/buffs are the reason they are brought to the raid and remain vaible, not overall dps.

"Lower general dps" is a gross understatement when healers and tanks are reporting outdoing them...

I'm just gonna bring dragoons with me to raids for melee, they bring more than Ninja's ever will and they do more damage anyway, sounds like a good idea to me. If BRD + MCH are the same then I guess it applies to all melee being carbon copies of each other too huh?

Just someone else with their head in the clouds...

Stop acting like people should be grateful they have been relegated to a Shaman's totem pole out of WoW... "We want your regen, stay out of our 4mans though. I want to clear faster"

I'm sure alot of lazy players love this, I'm willing to suspect most would enjoy being some use outside of that very special spot you will reserve (for BRD's not MCH's) on raids like it's a charity -_-

"Look you're still relevent! You have that one skill I like, it will help me until I get gear, then i don't need you"... Again this is for BRD's, MCH will just not be brought along at all, not like it should be one or the other. Having both at once is a restriction the community will impose right from the start... For no reason other than lack of damage... Again your argument was?

It's not like people say "Oh we have a DRG guess that makes bringing a NIN out of the question now." Again double standards is totally fine if it doesn't affect you...

No you are no more "pure dps" than a MCH.

[Panasync]

snip

Until you can queue as a support, you have no ground to walk.

That being said, if you moved the damage+ debuff from TA to something else, do you think it wouldn't be used? It most certainly would be, the fact that it's tied to a huge hitting ability is a bonus, it doesn't somehow mean well if it was it's own ability with 0 potency we'd never see it. Sorry it's a huge utility that buffs the ENTIRE RAID. Not just melee, not just ranged, not just magic, THE ENTIRE RAIDS damage. If that's not a support ability I don't know what is.

Most of the time in FCoB that Paeon was as much for you as it was your fellow DPS, if you're all maxing on your skills you'll be all about running out at the same time, or could use a top up for a couple seconds to get to the next invig, this was only not for you if it was needed due to death.

That doesn't make Ninja a support, just like it doesn't make Bard a support. THIS GAME DOES NOT HAVE SUPPORTS.

[Ryaz]

snip

You're right. I do use Trick Attack for the extra damage. I also use it because the vulnerability buff increases party dps as well. You know what else? I use my turret my the extra damage. I power it up with Hypercharge because it boost my damage another 10% for 15 seconds, as well as the parties. They're pretty much the same thing. Things you use for damage with buffs to help the party. You're argument holds no water on that front.

I'm not asking for us to be top dps. Just competitive like other dps. I'm perfectly fine with having to use Gauss Barrel and have my movement limited to compensate for the extra damage and having to deal with interrupts when dodging AoE-- just like a melee having to move out of them. That was actually the point of the ability. As its implemented now, though, it's a dps loss for the most part.