The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Leonus]

So you want the same damage ...

Bruh...

Imagine if they could do the same numbers on a dummy as everyone else...

They'd shit on everyone else in every fight that's not a standstill.

Every time.

I kind of want to see it now honestly. I want to see the collective rage of every other dps class combined. It'd be really entertaining.

Deadass serious.

[Zyrusticae]

At this point it would be nice if everyone assumed when folks talk about BRD/MCH doing the same amount of damage as other jobs that we're talking specifically about actual combat parses and NOT dummy parses.

(And if someone wants exactly the same dummy damage, well, I move that we should just ignore anything they say on the matter...)

[Panasync]

Uh I did think about what I said I was...

Bard doesn't have an ability that nerfs its damage simply to give a boost in damage (ie foes) either.

No you cannot m...

How does being tied into an ability change the essence of the buff/debuff? I addressed this in my original post, but you just ignored it apparently.

Bard benefits from it's own...

What difference does it make? They're both support abilities, my point is what does effecting yourself have to do with it? It makes one better, but it doesn't change that they're support abilities. Foe is a support ability, just because it doesn't effect BRD doesn't change that, just like Goad not effecting Ninja doesn't change that.

Difference is Bard's abili...

Passive in what sense that any of the other support abilities are not? Are you referring to an aura buff/debuff vs a cast?

Goad is a single ta....

What difference does that make, Bard has TWP as a single target support ability, does that somehow not make a support ability? If a job came out that was nothing but single target support abilities, are you saying it's not a support because bard has a raid wide song that buffs while nerfing itself, and this job can only do one ability per person w/o negative effects?

Your reasoning makes no sense.

[Panasync]

At this point it would be nice if everyone assumed when folks talk about BRD/MCH doing the same amount of damage as other jobs that we're talking specifically about actual combat parses and NOT dummy parses.

(And if someone wants exactly the same dummy damage, well, I move that we should just ignore anything they say on the matter...)

Personally I'm not upset at damage at the moment, I think Bard is in a good spot from my experience, I'm arguing the concept more so than the current state of Bard. I don't like WM, but I can't see them eating crow and getting rid of it especially since it's tied in MCH so hard. That being said, yeah just discussing the viewpoint in the title. I don't think your post was directed at me, but I just wanted to make the point.

[DeadRiser]

I agree with your reasoning on mobility vs damage. It is all related to uptime. That one line right there is what it boils down to for me though. Gauss does not do that, at all. FF14 is more set in stone class wise than most other games. I would love to be able to trade mobility for more damage, speaking from a MCH, not a BRD, pov.

I just hit 50 MCH today, and will try to get 60 as soon as I can. Curious to see what I can do.

[Teiren]

For what it's worth, I've always thought the Army's Paeon and Mage's Ballad damage reduction penalty was the most archaic, moronic design I've seen in a modern MMORPG. That said, BRD/MCH should and must not be able to do as much DPS as casters while their actions are all instant. That would be equally poor design. Wanderer's Minuet/Gauss Barrel should be making their single-target DPS equal to casters, if not roughly 3-5% higher than casters to make up for having to not use it sometimes. If that is not the case, then I wholeheartedly agree that should be fixed before most other things.

However, the concept of WM/GB is a good and necessary one. Once the tuning is right, you can always just not use them and go back to doing a little less DPS than others like before.

Last thing: Disabling auto attacks is equally as unbelievably stupid as the song damage penalty. I sympathize with that as well. Either cut auto-attack damage or make auto-attacks slower, but don't disable them and make them literally like casters.

[Ryaz]

I will say this-- in actual combat parses, ie in all the Alexander fights I've been in, I've been at or near the top of the dps charts as a MCH. Personally, I'd say we're fine in actual combat. Now, if further progression shows us being much weaker than others, then we might have an issue because yes, we'll help people get through progression, but once it's on farm, I could picture lower damage classes not being welcomed (or when you have fights like Bismarck EX). But we'll see how it goes. My FC members have no problems bringing me along because I've proven what I can do as a MCH.

Though people do forget about our utility at times. During A3, they told the SMN to throw Virus on the boss during Cascade, but forgot to ask me to Rend Mind (I did it anyway on the second Cascade). Btw, during that fight the top two dps were myself and another MCH.

Anyway, while I think the whole "support/dps" argument is just really dumb, I feel that MCH are in a good place after the fixes and people need to focus on proving that to others. It's the best way to end the stigma.