The harp is a lie.

[User201109011315]

[COLOR="ugly gay blue"]No it does not replace. Replacing implies the previous is removed. Classes will remain in game after Jobs are implemented. That much was made crystal clear.

Replacing could also imply that it has been made redundant, which is obviously what Physic meant. Dissecting the definitions of his words instead of their meaning doesn't help you prove your point.

Allow me to present you with an anology to help you understand.

Picture this. Imagine your dad cheats on your mom, gives her no attention, and even you, her son, prefers your dad's mistress to your real mother. But by title, your mom is still your mom and is still your dad's wife. Has she been replaced? Of course she has! All that remains is her title.

Basically that's what the job system will do to your mother (the armory system). Everyone will like the job system more, and the armory system will be a vestigal appendage to the game, relegated to the sidelines as a redundant leftover of the old FFXIV.

To say that "the armory system has not been replaced" is an appeal to definitions rather than an appeal to reality.

Jobs are roles one equips to excel in party play, whereas classes - while they can do well in a party - shine in a solo endeavor.

People keep spouting this nonsense. I know you're just regurgitating things Yoshi said (and he says alot of crap), but I'd beg you to please assess the statements for yourself, because what you're basically saying is that they have taken the Armory System - which was the flagship feature of FFXIV - and then said "oh, yay, you can now use the armory system to solo" even though you always could. That's such a demotion of the Armory System if it's now merely employed for soloing. And anyway, you can probably solo with Jobs too since soloing is such a cakewalk.

Besides, the definition of an armory-system-user as a solo-er and a job-user as a party-animal, is such a huge upheaval of the original philosophy of the armory system. That in itself is enough evidence that the armory system has been replaced (or should I use another word since you'll start throwing Webster's dictionary at me if i keep using this one?).

[NoctisUmbra]

Replacing could also imply that it has been made redundant, which is obviously what Physic meant. Dissecting the definitions of his words instead of their meaning doesn't help you prove your point.

Allow me to present you with an anology to help you understand.

Picture this. Imagine your dad cheats on your mom, gives her no attention, and even you, her son, prefers your dad's mistress to your real mother. But by title, your mom is still your mom and is still your dad's wife. Has she been replaced? Of course she has! All that remains is her title.

Basically that's what the job system will do to your mother (the armory system). Everyone will like the job system more, and the armory system will be a vestigal appendage to the game, relegated to the sidelines as a redundant leftover of the old FFXIV.

To say that "the armory system has not been replaced" is an appeal to definitions rather than an appeal to reality.



People keep spouting this nonsense. I know you're just regurgitating things Yoshi said (and he says alot of crap), but I'd beg you to please assess the statements for yourself, because what you're basically saying is that they have taken the Armory System - which was the flagship feature of FFXIV - and then said "oh, yay, you can now use the armory system to solo" even though you always could. That's such a demotion of the Armory System if it's now merely employed for soloing. And anyway, you can probably solo with Jobs too since soloing is such a cakewalk.

Besides, the definition of an armory-system-user as a solo-er and a job-user as a party-animal, is such a huge upheaval of the original philosophy of the armory system. That in itself is enough evidence that the armory system has been replaced (or should I use another word since you'll start throwing Webster's dictionary at me if i keep using this one?).

lol gifthorse.

[Ferth]

...

While I agree with your position on redundancy and replacement via jobs, I don't think your personal attacks on Noctis is going to help anything.

If anything it just gives him fuel to discount you.

That being said I agree with just about everything else you've said. The representation as jobs to be used for party specific roles and classes designed for solo is an incredibly weak one.

More than anything I am frustrated by the language barrier we face, the localization team does great work, and I am very thankful for them, but it's really hard to get a feel for what the Dev Team is thinking and aiming for.

Part of me keeps hoping that something is getting lost in translation, but more and more I fear the dev team is either extremely limited in what changes they actually can implement... or they just aren't a very creative bunch.

Its really hard to get passed the idea that they are shoe-horning a job system into a class system that doesn't really work with it, then shoe-horning a job into a class that has no correlation with it... and to top it off, shoe-horning a harp into a bow.

I'd wager it's a fair guess that Yoshi is a bit overworked right now... but someone at SE needs to man up and tell him this idea isn't good.

[User201109011315]

Its really hard to get passed the idea that they are shoe-horning a job system into a class system that doesn't really work with it, then shoe-horning a job into a class that has no correlation with it... and to top it off, shoe-horning a harp into a bow.

I think that about sums it up.

[NoctisUmbra]

I'm gonna take the "wait, try and see" approach rather than the "I already know what's gonna happen" approach when it comes to jobs. I'm excited for them, especially after that cover.

[Travesty]

People keep spouting this nonsense. I know you're just regurgitating things Yoshi said (and he says alot of crap), but I'd beg you to please assess the statements for yourself, because what you're basically saying is that they have taken the Armory System - which was the flagship feature of FFXIV - and then said "oh, yay, you can now use the armory system to solo" even though you always could. That's such a demotion of the Armory System if it's now merely employed for soloing. And anyway, you can probably solo with Jobs too since soloing is such a cakewalk.

Besides, the definition of an armory-system-user as a solo-er and a job-user as a party-animal, is such a huge upheaval of the original philosophy of the armory system. That in itself is enough evidence that the armory system has been replaced (or should I use another word since you'll start throwing Webster's dictionary at me if i keep using this one?).

Well, to be fair, according to the player polls, people wanted massive changes from the original philosophy of the game. So I would not at all be surprised if the Armoury system largely goes by the wayside.

[Physic]

No it does not replace. Replacing implies the previous is removed. Classes will remain in game after Jobs are implemented. That much was made crystal clear.

Jobs are roles one equips to excel in party play, whereas classes - while they can do well in a party - shine in a solo endeavor.

As far as their relationship to the class in terms of skill, they said that when as a class you equipped the unlocked job you would lose the ability to equip cross-class skills, however gain job-only skills. Apply this to the concept art of the alleged Bard class in that cover being the job that Archer unlocks and you can understand how, because the bow transforms into a lyre and back, it has the capacity to use all native Archer skills whilst gaining the ability to use Bard-only musical skills.

As far as how SE announced Jobs would work, there is no argument against Archer unlocking Bard. The only necessary link between jobs and classes is the native weapon of the class.

SE wanted to do something creative in a fantasy game. Bows and harps/lyres have been connected and their similarities appreciated in many ways throughout human history. It is not so difficult to imagine SE building on this and going the creative route. Hell they have Serah using a transforming bow/moogle weapon in FFXIII-2. The concept is not so foreign at all. If they made gunblades they sure as hell can make lyrebows.

The reason I find the opposition to the lyre/bow theory, especially in this thread, to be amusing is not because I simply disagree. It is because no one seems to offer up another believable reason as to why it is something else. The attempts to say it's still only a fancy bow by showing real-life bow designs are the most amusing. It is a fantasy game.

Let's look at what the lyre/bow theory has going for it:

1. Bard is one of the jobs that were announced by SE in an interview months ago. Although it wasn't certain they were the initial 7, being that the cover clearly displays the other 6 quite obviously, it is safe to assume that those are the initial release. By process of elimination, Bard is left for Archer.
2. Mages are getting BLM and WHM, and are therefore taken up based on SE's announcement of there initially being 1 job per class. Bard must go to a DoW. Out of all of them, coupled with this controversial cover art, it is logical to connect the bow to the lyre. As far as DoW weapons resembling musical instruments go, Archer takes the cake.
3. Archer has the highest base MP pool out of the DoW.
4. Latest response by community rep confirms the bow is a weapon that transforms.

If someone is going to argue against the bow/lyre theory, instead of making it based on denial or personal opinion how about they show some game-related facts that support their notion?

replace : to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor

that is the definition of replace. Jobs will be taking the place of classes in most party based content. This is what the developers said.
Jobs actually literally replace your class, they describe it as, instead of being pugilist you can be monk. An example of jobs not replacing class would be:
monk/pugilist In this case the job acts as a higher heirarchy of pugilist. another example would be
Pugilist-monk, where monk is a specification of pugilist.

The problem with a bard archer isnt that its the worst idea ever, in fact it is not a new idea. the problem is, there is nothing about archer that is bard like, anything that makes archer bard like is coming from the job only. Its a bit weird to level a class to say 20, then be forced into another path, that has nothing to do with what you did for 20 levels.

anybody could see that the barcher is basically a hybrid of an archer and a musician, but wait, there is no musician class, there is no connection to archery and music, in fact i think one would be hard pressed to find many famous archers who are also accomplished musicians. Nothing about archer to date even bares a resemblance to bard. Now, if these were totally different classes, unlocked by leveling base classes, it would make sense, but they are supposedly extensions of your current classes, and if they are not, then why exactly are they locked to classes anyhow?

While barcher may not be trash, the heirarchy they are setting up is illogical, especially with barcher, unless it is bard in name only and has very little ties to actual music.

[Davorok]

PSxpert2011, if you're going to have a discussion with yourself you don't need the FFXIV forums to do so.

At least he wasn't arguing with himself.

Yes he was!

No he wasn't.

Yes he was.

Wasn't!

Was!

Monty Python

[User201109011315]

Well, to be fair, according to the player polls, people wanted massive changes from the original philosophy of the game. So I would not at all be surprised if the Armoury system largely goes by the wayside.

Fine, then SE should leave it by the wayside, but what they shouldn't do is string people along saying the armory system still has a role to play (if you'll pardon the pun) when it obviously doesn't.

Keeping it in the game even though they obviously hate it, and don't even make any attempts to work within the confines of the system (see: barcher), is just a false presentation of their intentions and ideas.

[Travesty]

Fine, then SE should leave it by the wayside, but what they shouldn't do is string people along saying the armory system still has a role to play (if you'll pardon the pun) when it obviously doesn't.

Keeping it in the game even though they obviously hate it, and don't even make any attempts to work within the confines of the system (see: barcher), is just a false presentation of their intentions and ideas.

Totally agree.